are american people responsible for the wars?

Have philosophical discussions about politics, law, and government.
Featured Article: Definition of Freedom - What Freedom Means to Me
kordofany
Posts: 56
Joined: April 9th, 2018, 3:57 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Franz Kafka
Contact:

are american people responsible for the wars?

Post by kordofany »

Are the American people responsible for the wars led by the United States administrations against other peoples of the world? If the answer is no; Is this a flaw in democracy
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: are american people responsible for the wars?

Post by LuckyR »

kordofany wrote: April 27th, 2018, 11:35 am Are the American people responsible for the wars led by the United States administrations against other peoples of the world? If the answer is no; Is this a flaw in democracy
What you are pondering is: are those who are lead responsible for the leadership? Most would say no, the tail doesn’t wag the dog.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
Grecorivera5150
Posts: 677
Joined: June 8th, 2012, 1:22 am
Favorite Philosopher: Bruce Lee

Re: are american people responsible for the wars?

Post by Grecorivera5150 »

Yes and Yes.
Alias
Posts: 3119
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: are american people responsible for the wars?

Post by Alias »

Yes and No and Yes and No.
Democracy is a good idea, but far too easy to corrupt.
People are far too easy to mislead, divert, confuse and cheat.
Then, too, American culture has two or three fundamental contradictions embedded in it. Contradictory belief is crazy-making, so people ignore those issues - until they're forced to to take a life-and-death stand on one of them, and then the majority line up according to early-childhood indoctrination or Pavlovian response, rather than a considered, informed, rational decision -
which is hard enough to come by, given the special-interest-driven communications network
and the paranoid secretiveness of key government agencies -
so they support whatever party promises to keep them safe from whatever threat they've most recently been scared by.

Yes, they really ought to think more clearly.
But, no, they don't get much time to do that between crises, and they're starved for reliable information to think about.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14995
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: are american people responsible for the wars?

Post by Sy Borg »

I wonder about the propaganda role of Rupert Murdoch's media empire in the US's wars and his complete lack of accountability.
kordofany
Posts: 56
Joined: April 9th, 2018, 3:57 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Franz Kafka
Contact:

Re: are american people responsible for the wars?

Post by kordofany »

Alias wrote: May 18th, 2018, 12:22 am Yes and No and Yes and No.
Democracy is a good idea, but far too easy to corrupt.
People are far too easy to mislead, divert, confuse and cheat.
Then, too, American culture has two or three fundamental contradictions embedded in it. Contradictory belief is crazy-making, so people ignore those issues - until they're forced to to take a life-and-death stand on one of them, and then the majority line up according to early-childhood indoctrination or Pavlovian response, rather than a considered, informed, rational decision -
which is hard enough to come by, given the special-interest-driven communications network
and the paranoid secretiveness of key government agencies -
so they support whatever party promises to keep them safe from whatever threat they've most recently been scared by.

Yes, they really ought to think more clearly.
But, no, they don't get much time to do that between crises, and they're starved for reliable information to think about.

It is an incoherent answer, but implicitly implies that the American people are very selfish and totally submissive to a hidden dictatorship that they can not escape.
Alias
Posts: 3119
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: are american people responsible for the wars?

Post by Alias »

kordofany wrote: May 19th, 2018, 5:45 pm It is an incoherent answer, but implicitly implies that the American people are very selfish and totally submissive to a hidden dictatorship that they can not escape.
No and No.
(implicitly implies?)
User avatar
Ser10Rec1pr0
Posts: 90
Joined: May 3rd, 2012, 9:38 am
Favorite Philosopher: Harold Garfinkel

Re: are american people responsible for the wars?

Post by Ser10Rec1pr0 »

"The American people" are not responsible for our wars; no matter how much they cheer the troops & denigrate the "enemy-of-the-week."

I can recall the fury after the U.S. embassy in Tehran was overrun w/ the demonstrators in Nov. 1979 & the staff there taken hostage. The media got folks good & riled up--& they ought to have been riled up--, & I remember some guy peddling "Bomb Iran" bumper stickers out of his car in Washington, DC's Georgetown area. Radio stations that were "all news, all talk" were spinning a parody of the Beach Boys' "Barbara Ann," called "Bomb Bomb Iran." (Two weeks later, more "students" in Islamabad, Pakistan, burned down the U.S. embassy there, but nobody was singing "Bomb Islamabad.")

But after the wars (e.g., 2003 Iraq invasion) go sour, the media implicate the people: "Well, this is what YOU wanted, isn't it?" They're doing the same w/ Trump now: this is what YOU ("the people") wanted; altho the media were very disingenuous about the two candidates thruout that 2016 campaign: candidates that were boosted by their respective parties on their name recognition alone & which, when it came to the crunch, were more similar (wealthy, white, & loud) than different.

In the main, ALL media deal in alarmism (gossip, intrigue, scandal), & who has a choice but to believe at least some of it?
User avatar
Grecorivera5150
Posts: 677
Joined: June 8th, 2012, 1:22 am
Favorite Philosopher: Bruce Lee

Re: are american people responsible for the wars?

Post by Grecorivera5150 »

I disagree. Blaming the media is an excuse. There is a wealth of information available to people if they really wanted to be informed and participate in a democratic system responsibly. Being truly informed has become passe because there are so many more interesting things to focus our attention on during our free time, regardless of the socioeconomic level of each citizen. Also many shy away from reality because of the overwhelming existential crises that looms behind understanding power structures, exploitation of weaker nations and the tacit responsibility that lies on each individual who knows but does not choose to act. Facing the idea of being complicit in immoral and contradictory acts is enough to cause many to stop digging and be rationalistic in an attempt to protect their psyche and their world view. Waving the flag becomes an easy choice for most as the concepts of self preservation preservation, patriotism and prosperity ,regardless of who is paying the true cost win out over embracing ideals that are stated during the inception of nations such as the concept that all men are created equal or have human or civil rights. The media is not perfect as many major networks take advertising money from major defense contractors but for them it is the cost of doing business. The media is made of people , the same as those who consume it. Information comes from various political leanings and many programs have bias. Still, this is not the media's fault. They are only one part of a very complex set of psychosocial dynamics that bring the responsibility for war back around to the citizens of the aggressor nation.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: are american people responsible for the wars?

Post by LuckyR »

Grecorivera5150 wrote: June 21st, 2018, 1:45 pm I disagree. Blaming the media is an excuse. There is a wealth of information available to people if they really wanted to be informed and participate in a democratic system responsibly. Being truly informed has become passe because there are so many more interesting things to focus our attention on during our free time, regardless of the socioeconomic level of each citizen. Also many shy away from reality because of the overwhelming existential crises that looms behind understanding power structures, exploitation of weaker nations and the tacit responsibility that lies on each individual who knows but does not choose to act. Facing the idea of being complicit in immoral and contradictory acts is enough to cause many to stop digging and be rationalistic in an attempt to protect their psyche and their world view. Waving the flag becomes an easy choice for most as the concepts of self preservation preservation, patriotism and prosperity ,regardless of who is paying the true cost win out over embracing ideals that are stated during the inception of nations such as the concept that all men are created equal or have human or civil rights. The media is not perfect as many major networks take advertising money from major defense contractors but for them it is the cost of doing business. The media is made of people , the same as those who consume it. Information comes from various political leanings and many programs have bias. Still, this is not the media's fault. They are only one part of a very complex set of psychosocial dynamics that bring the responsibility for war back around to the citizens of the aggressor nation.
You are correct that the mainstream (lamestream) media is not to blame for the current post-factual world we live in.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 1122
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: are american people responsible for the wars?

Post by ThomasHobbes »

kordofany wrote: April 27th, 2018, 11:35 am Are the American people responsible for the wars led by the United States administrations against other peoples of the world? If the answer is no; Is this a flaw in democracy
People tend not to take responsibility. Not only the electors but those elected - deferring the responsibility on to each other. People blame leaders, leaders claim they act for the will of the people, whilst the media feed the dissimulation and obfuscation, building myths and creating enemies.
User avatar
Burning ghost
Posts: 3065
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: are american people responsible for the wars?

Post by Burning ghost »

kordofany wrote: April 27th, 2018, 11:35 am Are the American people responsible for the wars led by the United States administrations against other peoples of the world? If the answer is no; Is this a flaw in democracy
No, that us a stupid position to take. To show how dumb this is thikn about this ... if you see a homeless person and don’t help them is their plight our fault? No, it is not your fault, although you may understand that they have had a lot of bad luck to end up whee they are.

Plenty of people choose to make a stand i the US against the administration when it comes to war. The Vietnam war was an instance of the publics disapproval and to say that merely being born in teh country makes you responsible for the actoins of the government of that country is, to put it frankly, an insane position to take.

That aside as individuals we are responsible toward the fights we choose to fight. Some people may try and do “good” in one area and leave the issue of war to others - becasue they’ll always be people opposing violent conflicts for very obvious human reasons.

Is it a problem in democracy? Well, yes. There are many problems with western democracies, but over all they tend to function well enough and people are free to voice their concerns without fear of being sent to prison (as would be the case in other countries where they monitor public forums and target anyone who says something negative about the government.)

The benefit of democracy is the ability for the public to voice concerns IN PUBLIC and to directly criticise the government. Of course thee are some efforts by government officials to suppress some views and push others. Propaganda is a neccessary “evil” of a democratic country - one I am happy to accept over some overly optimistic vision of a future utopian society (but, that doesn’t mean it is a bad thing to have an ideal target either.)

To sum up ... for question one the answer is NO although this doesn’t mean teh general public should distance themselves too much from what the government does, and that they should take a moral stance (of their choice, against something they feel they can do something about directly/indirectly.) And to the second question, YES, but there has been no other successful system in place to date, and the freedom of speech is a fundamental principle of a democratic system (also, it is a little silly to point the dinger at “democracy” without understanding that there are complex machinations within a government body that dip into numerous other areas such as economic systems and rule of law; democracy touches economics, but it is not the driving force of economics becasue they a set upon different systems - capitalism and socialism being the common poles.)
AKA badgerjelly
kordofany
Posts: 56
Joined: April 9th, 2018, 3:57 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Franz Kafka
Contact:

Re: are american people responsible for the wars?

Post by kordofany »

Burning ghost wrote: June 22nd, 2018, 4:21 am
kordofany wrote: April 27th, 2018, 11:35 am Are the American people responsible for the wars led by the United States administrations against other peoples of the world? If the answer is no; Is this a flaw in democracy


Is it a problem in democracy? Well, yes. There are many problems with western democracies, but over all they tend to function well enough and people are free to voice their concerns without fear of being sent to prison (as would be the case in other countries where they monitor public forums and target anyone who says something negative about the government.)

So you think that democracy is the freedom of expression only, even if this expression does not have any effect on government decisions, especially very dangerous decisions such as declaring war on other peoples.
Therefore, you do not consider that democracy is the rule of the people for themselves, as is known in the science of political history since ancient Greek cities?
Freedom is an Idea in the mind... And reckless behavior is irrational.. I can live free inside the prison.
Image
User avatar
Burning ghost
Posts: 3065
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: are american people responsible for the wars?

Post by Burning ghost »

Do you think I said that even though I didn’t?

This is a growing trend on these forums it seems. Learn to read what is WRITTEN not which you wish to attack maybe?

Do think modern democracy is comparable to “democracy” in ancient Greece? What is more, do you think all self declared “democracies” are all equally democratic and a true representative of the people?

Quite clearly (or maybe not for you?) there is no “pure democracy” becasue people ae not robots. Democracy is the loose idea of each person getting to voice their opinion and ha e their say via a vote. Obviously there are many things that people do not agree on so “freedom” is compromised by accepting the will of others in certain areas of disagreement.

I think Orwell pointed out these points clerly enough in 1984. “WAR IS PEACE” and “FREEDOM IS SLAVERY” frame the poles of the political landscape well enough right?

If you can present an argument to say that every citizen of any given country (that claims to be “democratic”) is fully to blame for the actions of every person in that country then I aleady have a quite obvious counter argument ...

If someone commits a hideous murder and murder is punishable by death (as it is in some “democratic” countries) then all people in that country should be put to death. Or to extend further we can just blame humanity ir eve life itself and annihilate all life on Earth.

Of course, I am being pruposefully OTT. What we’re really asking here is not whether the citizens are responsible for the actions of the government, but how close they are to understanding the repercussions of their everyday actions as responsible people, responsible to many more micro problems such as providing food for their family, looking after friends in need and paying bills. Some people may neglect the wordl picture out of immediate necessity and/or a myopic world view. What is more, if the government encourages propaganda to bemuse and confound the public are they directly at failt for this? It’s a tricky situation for sure.

Maybe you’d be better off outlining what particular “democracy” you are referring to, and/or give a general definition of “democracy” rather than create strawman arguments. Who was who said we should make an “ironman” rather than a “strawman”? Hitchen’s?
AKA badgerjelly
kordofany
Posts: 56
Joined: April 9th, 2018, 3:57 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Franz Kafka
Contact:

Re: are american people responsible for the wars?

Post by kordofany »

Burning ghost wrote: June 22nd, 2018, 12:51 pm If someone commits a hideous murder and murder is punishable by death (as it is in some “democratic” countries) then all people in that country should be put to death. Or to extend further we can just blame humanity ir eve life itself and annihilate all life on Earth.
This example is not even close to the subject of discussion.
The murderer did not have a mandate from the community to commit the murder. I am talking about the democracy in which the people give a mandate to a person to take all decisions in their name. Democracy, if not direct, is parliamentary. If the president does not represent the people, then democracy has lost its intrinsic value. If democracy is prosperity, the people of the Arabian Gulf live in prosperity. Without need for elections.
Freedom is an Idea in the mind... And reckless behavior is irrational.. I can live free inside the prison.
Image
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Politics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021