Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

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Fooloso4
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Joined: February 28th, 2014, 4:50 pm

Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Fooloso4 »

Dachshund:
I am not ignoring your posts.
You are ignoring my posts. You have not addressed a single word of what I have said. Nothing on the hypocrisy of defending violence in the Old Testament as “divinely ordained”. Nothing on the problem of your council not defining religion as you think they should or the threat such a definition might pose to your own religion. Nothing on the fact that surrender is also a basic tenet of Christianity. Nothing on the Koran pointing to the need for interpretation by those with understanding.

Steve already noted the contradiction between your early claims and what you say now. You have moderated your own immoderation. This too follows a common pattern. You begin with an untenable position and then slowly retreat, modifying what you have said, but in such a way as to appear as if this is what you have said all along. Early on (second page) you said:
… all of these so-called good, "moderate" Muslims have the same ultimate goal; i.e. to defeat the enemies of Islam, and there are many ways to engage in "jihad" beside utiliizing personal physical violence.
But now you simply condemn these tolerant and non-violent Muslims for not condemning the intolerance and violence found in their scripture.

There are outspoken Muslims who do condemn those who use the Koran as justification for perpetrating violence and intolerance. You want to paint the picture as one of theological ideology in order to defeat the enemy Islam, by destroying the Koran. But it is not a matter of theology but rather of contemporary geo-politics, a reaction to the violence and disruption perpetrated by the West. The current generation of extremists is a direct consequence of being born into a world whose foundations was in rubble. It is no surprise that they would seek stability and meaning in their religious roots, no surprise that there would be a growing, fermenting anger and resentment toward those who destroyed their world, and no surprise that their powerlessness would lead them seek power in whatever ways they could.


To be clear: to understand is not to condone. Violence should not be tolerated. If we are to find solutions we must uncover the root of the problem. The solution is not the destruction of what they hold to be most sacred. Such action is not “divinely ordained”. In fact, your assumptions about divinely ordained actions shows just how much you have in common with Muslim extremists. You hide behind a facade of civility with your call for rational commissions, but your Holy War by other means will inevitably lead to Holy War by all too common and familiar means. But you will, no doubt, justify the violence you would precipitate because it is divinely ordained.
Dachshund
Posts: 513
Joined: October 11th, 2017, 5:30 pm

Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Dachshund »

I do not need to ask any Muslim who living in Britain whether or not it is true that the the sacred scripture of their religion - Islam - contains many verses that condone/ incite the perpetration of indiscriminate, morally unjustifiable acts of offensive violence against all non-believers or verses that preach pure hatred and intolerance of those who choose to follow any religious faith other than Islam BECAUSE it is an indisputable, incontrovertible concrete cold objective FACT that they DO.

The suggestion that, for example, the 109 brutal so-called "Sword Verses" in the Koran have the potential to somehow be re-interpreted, then reinterpreted again, then again at progressively more subtly nuanced, more sophisticated and more profoundly meaningful level to a point where they can ultimately be understood as being essentially benign and harmless is nonsense. This is the kind of "disappear-up-your-own-areshole" sophistry that a postmodern apologist for Islam like Foolosoph4 tries to peddle, it is, IPSO FACTO, pure, nebulous BS. Because the thesis he is asking you to accept is simply beyond the pale of any reasonable discourse on the issue. I put it to you that when a "Sword Verse" in the Koran says "go out and kill the infidel" or "go out and smite the infidel at the neck ( i.e. behead him) THAT THIS IS WHAT IT ACTUALLY MEANS. Such instructions remain as perfectly as clear and unequivocal in the standard, official book version of the Koran today ( aka the "Uthman Codex") as they were in the 7th century when the "Uthman Codex" was first set down.

Read them for yourself, old sport, then let me know what you think !

Regards

Dachshund
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Steve3007 »

Dachshund wrote:Let me conclude with the following quotation from Nietzsche which, I think, nicely summarises the truth of the nature of women very nicely, and ,how any wise man should ideally endeavour to manage his relationship/s with them...

...a man who has depth, in his spirit as well as his desires, and also that depth of benevolence which is capable of hardness and severity and is easily confused with them, can think of woman only in an oriental way - he must conceive of woman as a possession, as property with lock and key, as something predestined for service and attaining her fulfillment in service...
Taken at face value, the above quote sounds as though you are calling for half of the world's human beings to be the possessions of the other half of the world's human beings. A.K.A. slavery.
Dachshund wrote:As for your own primitive, spear-chucking, moko-faced, haka-dancing "culture", guess what ? it' stone - cold dead, bro'., that's what Stream-rollered flat by the objectively superior cultural values, morality, customs, institutions social manners and mores of modern white/European Western civilization. Game over.You should bear in mind at all times that you are very LUCKY to have be permitted to reside in this country; if a lot of people, (myself included), had their way you would not be.
Taken at face value, the above quote sounds as though you are calling for the indigenous populations of Australia and New Zealand to be expelled from their countries.

But perhaps not.

Do you think these words should be re-interpreted so that they no longer sound like that? Do you think it would make sense for me to discuss these words with somebody who believes in them (in this case, their author) before deciding for myself what they are proposing?

Based simply on your words in this forum, without consulting you about those words, do you think you should be prevented from entering the UK due to the fact that your views are not in accordance with the values of that country?
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ThomasHobbes
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Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Dachshund wrote: August 8th, 2018, 11:01 am I do not need to ask any Muslim who living in Britain whether or not it is true that the the sacred scripture of their religion - Islam - contains many verses that condone/ incite the perpetration of indiscriminate, morally unjustifiable acts of offensive violence against all non-believers or verses that preach pure hatred and intolerance of those who choose to follow any religious faith other than Islam BECAUSE it is an indisputable, incontrovertible concrete cold objective FACT that they DO.
Dachshund
Since the OT is sacred to Christians and Jews, you might as well ask them too.
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LuckyR
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by LuckyR »

Dachshund wrote: August 8th, 2018, 11:01 am I do not need to ask any Muslim who living in Britain whether or not it is true that the the sacred scripture of their religion - Islam - contains many verses that condone/ incite the perpetration of indiscriminate, morally unjustifiable acts of offensive violence against all non-believers or verses that preach pure hatred and intolerance of those who choose to follow any religious faith other than Islam BECAUSE it is an indisputable, incontrovertible concrete cold objective FACT that they DO.

The suggestion that, for example, the 109 brutal so-called "Sword Verses" in the Koran have the potential to somehow be re-interpreted, then reinterpreted again, then again at progressively more subtly nuanced, more sophisticated and more profoundly meaningful level to a point where they can ultimately be understood as being essentially benign and harmless is nonsense. This is the kind of "disappear-up-your-own-areshole" sophistry that a postmodern apologist for Islam like Foolosoph4 tries to peddle, it is, IPSO FACTO, pure, nebulous BS. Because the thesis he is asking you to accept is simply beyond the pale of any reasonable discourse on the issue. I put it to you that when a "Sword Verse" in the Koran says "go out and kill the infidel" or "go out and smite the infidel at the neck ( i.e. behead him) THAT THIS IS WHAT IT ACTUALLY MEANS. Such instructions remain as perfectly as clear and unequivocal in the standard, official book version of the Koran today ( aka the "Uthman Codex") as they were in the 7th century when the "Uthman Codex" was first set down.

Read them for yourself, old sport, then let me know what you think !

Regards

Dachshund
Hey old sport, I'll ask you the question that Spectrum hemmed and hawed and struggled with (where is that guy anyway?). I know you have an answer, so let's hear it: Are you afraid (fearful) of death by immigrant jihadists?
"As usual... it depends."
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Steve3007 »

Hey old sport
I think we'll be getting more of these rhetorical flourishes, along with the usual diet of long-winded, elaborate, colourful insults as he starts getting all riled up again.
Dachshund
Posts: 513
Joined: October 11th, 2017, 5:30 pm

Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Dachshund »

'll tell what riles me up Steve , old sport. It's sitting in my living room in Hertfordshire with my kind-hearted, law-abiding English wife and young son watching the news on BBC and hearing that 20 kids in Manchester who were out enjoying themselves that night at a pop concert in the city centre had just been brutally murdered -literally torn to shreds - by a British-born jihadist who detonated a suicide bomb he had strapped to himself as they walked out into the foyer of the venue at the end of the show. Twenty happy, innocent kids who had their lives and futures stolen from them - their families condemned to suffer unspeakable torment for every second of the rest of their lives - because the good, peace-loving, "Not in My Name" muslim majority in Britain have never never had the guts - the moral courage, the human decency - to stand up and condemn the verses of violent hatred they know full well are written into their own sacred Islamic scriptures. The verses of hatred and violence that they know full well were used to justify this unspeakable atrocity. And they are, in principle, just as guilty (in my "bigoted", "fascist", "neo-conservative -ratbag" opinion) as the animal who detonated the bomb that evening.

Regards

Dachshund
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Steve3007 »

Dachshund:

Do you not think that the numerous atrocities that happen throughout the world make other people angry too? Are you really so wrapped up in yourself?

Please note, for the record that I have never called you "fascist", "neo-conservative" or "ratbag". David Cameron called you a fascist and I asked you an (unanswered) question about that.

You have called me many things and you have made many assumptions about me, as you also have about others. I have judged you on your words. This, sadly, is just one small aspect of your hypocrisy and double-standards. I doubt whether you will ever face up to it or ever seriously address the questions that I and others have asked you or take a look at yourself.
Fooloso4
Posts: 3601
Joined: February 28th, 2014, 4:50 pm

Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Fooloso4 »

Dachshund:
This is the kind of "disappear-up-your-own-areshole" sophistry that a postmodern apologist for Islam like Foolosoph4 tries to peddle, it is, IPSO FACTO, pure, nebulous BS.
Your generic attacks against me and others only serves to demonstrate your lack of emotional and intellectual maturity. I am neither a postmodern nor an apologist for any religion. Anyone who understands what those terms actually mean will find no evidence supporting your accusations.

Pointing out the hypocrisy of defending violence in the Old Testament as “divinely ordained” while condemning violence in the Koran is neither postmodern nor apologetic.

Pointing out the problem of your council not defining religion as you think they should or the threat such a definition might pose to your own religion is neither postmodern nor apologetic.

Pointing out the fact that surrender is also a basic tenet of Christianity is neither postmodern nor apologetic.

Point out the fact that the Koran confirms the need for interpretation by those with understanding is neither postmodern nor apologetic.
Steve3007
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Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Steve3007 »

I think the sad and tragic thing here is that the very same sense of alienation and collective blaming that allows some young men to do stupid and beyond-horrific things is loudly and persistently declared by Dachshund himself.

How could a 22 year old man stand in the middle of a group of teenagers who have just come out of a pop concert and deliberately rip them to shreds, without the monumental scale of the heartbreak that he is causing stopping him? And why is it that the murder of innocent children like this is the kind of crime against innocents that always grieves us the most?

Many reasons. But among them are alienation and empathy.

When Dachshund says something like this about an entire nation of 120 million people (Japan)...
Dachshund wrote:they are an innately cruel ,vicious and breathtakingly arrogant race of people as their barbarous conduct in the Pacific during the Second World War clearly demonstrated. They are intensely xenophobic and fanatically racist as well. The bastards were right on our doorstep in 1943, and if it wasn't for Uncle Sam we would have been f**ked. They got what they deserved at Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945, thank God.
...to quote just one of his many vitriol-filled diatribes against entire groups, I think it gives us an insight into how this alienation can work. It shows us how the destruction of innocent children works inside the mind of the alienated individual. This evident delight at the killing of Japanese children is really not very different from the ignorant, phony excuses about "revenge against the crusader west for their crimes in our homes" that sometimes ostensibly drive the killing of children by suicide bombers in other places.

Dachshund strikes me as a deeply alienated person who, judging by his past words, should be able to understand all too well how it's possible to de-humanize the stranger, and the stranger's children.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Steve3007 »

Note. He doesn't say "the bombing of Hiroshima was a terrible act but it saved more lives than it took by avoiding the need for a ground invasion" or anything like that. He simply says "They got what they deserved. Thank God."

A line that, with some translation, could have come straight from a Daesh press release.
David Cooper
Posts: 224
Joined: April 30th, 2018, 4:51 pm

Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by David Cooper »

Steve3007 wrote: August 8th, 2018, 8:01 amHave you spoken to actual real-life Muslims about this? Have you said to a Muslim "It is an objective fact that your holy book condones unjustified violence. What do you say about that?"? If so, what do they reply? You must surely be aware that there are Muslims who dispute the things you claim to be objective facts about their religion. What have their arguments been? In general: Can you fairly and honestly elucidate the arguments of people who disagree with you?
I have spoken to such people, and they just go silent, refusing to speak to you again. They don't condemn the hate - they don't want it to be there, and they don't appreciate having it pointed out to them, or having it labelled as hate. And that's the big problem - they aren't bad people, but they're locked into something which requires them to be apologists for hate. They brush it under the carpet and pretend to themselves that it isn't there, but every once in a while, someone in their community reads the hate and thinks, "Why aren't we doing that? Why aren't we doing Islam by the book?" And then you have a terrorist emerging out of a group of people who are almost entirely benign - their one failing is that they keep the hate alive by hiding it from themselves while propagating it down the generations. We can't have peace so long as people keep that hate going - it is a cancer that needs to be cut out. And it's not just Islam - the hate in many other religions and ideologies has the same capability to generate atrocities, so none of it should be tolerated. Tolerating hate will never eliminate hate.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Steve3007 »

Hi David,
I have spoken to such people, and they just go silent, refusing to speak to you again...
It's good to hear that you engage with people. I've spoken to many Muslim people too. In my career I have dealt with, and got to know to some extent, people from various places, including Muslim countries. And I have worked with British Muslims. One problem, of course, is that it usually takes quite a lot of getting to know a person before you can start to talk reasonably freely about religion or politics without simply driving people away. I worked with a devoutly Muslim guy a while ago and became friendly enough to start to talk about these things. He didn't go silent. But he did make the same argument that you can hear elsewhere about context and interpretation.

So what's your take on this? In a society like the US or UK how do we go about fostering an environment in which hate is not tolerated?
David Cooper
Posts: 224
Joined: April 30th, 2018, 4:51 pm

Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by David Cooper »

Fooloso4 wrote: August 8th, 2018, 10:45 amThere are outspoken Muslims who do condemn those who use the Koran as justification for perpetrating violence and intolerance.

That isn't good enough. If someone acts on a Nazi text and kills Jews, we don't stop at condemning that individual, but we condemn the text that caused them to behave that way.
If we are to find solutions we must uncover the root of the problem. The solution is not the destruction of what they hold to be most sacred.
The root of the problem is the primary source of the hate, and that's in the holy texts. The solution is precisely to remove and destroy that hate, regardless of whether it's "sacred" or not. Indeed, anyone who believes in a good God who finds such hate coming from their God should realise that their God cannot possibly endorse that hate - to fail to condemn that hate is therefore to side with the devil instead of with God. It is a test of mankind, and peace will only come to the world when people are sufficiently grown up to eliminate the hate and usher in a new era where the devil is banished. That is what God wants us to do.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Steve3007 »

David Cooper wrote:And it's not just Islam - the hate in many other religions and ideologies has the same capability to generate atrocities, so none of it should be tolerated. Tolerating hate will never eliminate hate.
What other religions and ideologies have this capacity, would you say?
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