Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
BigBango
Posts: 343
Joined: March 15th, 2018, 6:15 pm

Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by BigBango »

RJG wrote: October 29th, 2018, 8:56 pm
BigBango wrote:Please, there are so many problems with applying logic to reality.
BigBango, if you can't reason with 'logic', then your views are nothing more than just feel-good fairy tales. For without logic, ...'ANYTHING' is possible!
Actually logic has its problems even as an abstract product of mind.

There is little doubt that one could deduce anything close to the truth of reality without first establishing one's metaphysical principles.
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by RJG »

RJG wrote:BigBango, if you can't reason with 'logic', then your views are nothing more than just feel-good fairy tales. For without logic, ...'ANYTHING' is possible!
BigBango wrote:Actually logic has its problems even as an abstract product of mind.

There is little doubt that one could deduce anything close to the truth of reality without first establishing one's metaphysical principles.
Is this reasoning based on logic?
BigBango
Posts: 343
Joined: March 15th, 2018, 6:15 pm

Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by BigBango »

RJG wrote: October 29th, 2018, 10:59 pm
RJG wrote:BigBango, if you can't reason with 'logic', then your views are nothing more than just feel-good fairy tales. For without logic, ...'ANYTHING' is possible!
BigBango wrote:Actually logic has its problems even as an abstract product of mind.

There is little doubt that one could deduce anything close to the truth of reality without first establishing one's metaphysical principles.
Is this reasoning based on logic?
No, not really. This reasoning is based on our ability to intuit or imagine what is fundamentally true of reality. As Einstein said imagination is more important than knowledge. Once we have these ideas about the nature of existents then we can reason about them with logic as our tool for furthering our ideas.
devans99
Posts: 341
Joined: June 17th, 2018, 8:24 pm

Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by devans99 »

BigBango wrote: October 29th, 2018, 8:06 pm In fact, all the paradoxes that you brought up about infinity are just different versions of Zeno's paradox about motion.
Thanks for the feedback!

I would mention there was a second class of paradox I listed; things without a start are paradoxical like Eternity or (negative) infinity. So one example was:

The counting paradox
- Say you meet an Eternal being in your Eternal universe
- You notice he is counting
- You ask and he says ‘I’ve always been counting’
- What number is he on?

Because Eternity (in time) has no start, the being is unable to start counting hence the paradox. Anything without a start cannot exist.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Belindi »

I seek information.

Is infinity 'shaped' like a straight line without beginning or end, or is infinity 'shaped' like the circumference of a circle?
Karpel Tunnel
Posts: 948
Joined: February 16th, 2018, 11:28 am

Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

We'd just be guessing.
devans99
Posts: 341
Joined: June 17th, 2018, 8:24 pm

Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by devans99 »

Belindi wrote: October 30th, 2018, 5:52 am I seek information.

Is infinity 'shaped' like a straight line without beginning or end, or is infinity 'shaped' like the circumference of a circle?
Infinity does not exist; there is no number X such that X > all other numbers because X+1>X.

Time is a finite circle with past present and future all existing. Everything repeats itself.
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by RJG »

Devans99 wrote:Because Eternity (in time) has no start, the being is unable to start counting hence the paradox. Anything without a start cannot exist.
Does the impossibility of "walking on water" mean the existence of water is impossible?

Does the impossibility of "counting from infinity" mean the existence of infinity is impossible?

Your conclusion "Anything without a start cannot exist" is not logically valid.

Devans99 wrote:Infinity does not exist; there is no number X such that X > all other numbers because X+1>X.
To the contrary, this means numbers continue infinitely.
devans99
Posts: 341
Joined: June 17th, 2018, 8:24 pm

Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by devans99 »

RJG wrote: October 30th, 2018, 7:51 am
Devans99 wrote:Because Eternity (in time) has no start, the being is unable to start counting hence the paradox. Anything without a start cannot exist.
Your conclusion "Anything without a start cannot exist" is not logically valid.
I should have said 'Anything real without a start cannot exist'. Care to give a counter-example

RJG wrote: October 30th, 2018, 7:51 am
Devans99 wrote:Infinity does not exist; there is no number X such that X > all other numbers because X+1>X.
To the contrary, this means numbers continue infinitely.
Yes that's a potential infinity. I'm not disputing the potential infinities; its the existence of actual infinity which is impossible.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Eduk »

I have an image of a Greek style tragedy where our protagonist is blind folded and placed in a vast desert. All they need to do to escape is walk in a straight line but they have no way to ensure that they are walking in a straight line.
Unknown means unknown.
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by RJG »

Devans99 wrote:I should have said 'Anything real without a start cannot exist'. Care to give a counter-example.
Devans, it doesn't matter if it is real or not, it is the logic (the math) that is flawed/invalid. The "anything real without a start cannot exist" conclusion still does not logically follow from "counting from infinity is impossible".

Devans99 wrote:...its the existence of actual infinity which is impossible.
There is NO valid logic that draws this conclusion.

Devans99 wrote:The counting paradox:
- Say you meet an Eternal being in your Eternal universe
- You notice he is counting
- You ask and he says ‘I’ve always been counting’
- What number is he on?
The answer/solution to this paradox is ...[drumroll please]... oo (infinity!)

Reasoning:
If this being started 100 counts ago, then he would be at 100 right now.
If he started X counts ago, then he would be at X right now.
If he started oo counts ago, then he would be at oo right now.
Therefore, oo (infinity) is the answer!
devans99
Posts: 341
Joined: June 17th, 2018, 8:24 pm

Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by devans99 »

RJG wrote: October 30th, 2018, 10:54 am
Devans99 wrote:I should have said 'Anything real without a start cannot exist'. Care to give a counter-example.
Devans, it doesn't matter if it is real or not, it is the logic (the math) that is flawed/invalid. The "anything real without a start cannot exist" conclusion still does not logically follow from "counting from infinity is impossible".
Things are defined by their start. Take away your birth, you would not exist. Take away Monday and the rest of the week does not exist. Take away the start of time and time does not exist. It's logically impossible for something real to not have a start.



RJG wrote: October 30th, 2018, 10:54 am
Devans99 wrote:...its the existence of actual infinity which is impossible.
There is NO valid logic that draws this conclusion.
The existence of an actually infinite set is impossible, its like the largest number - and I just proved that does not exist.

An actually infinite set has no end which is not allowed for real objects. Real things have to be fully defined; you can't just leave one end nebulous.
RJG wrote: October 30th, 2018, 10:54 am
Devans99 wrote:The counting paradox:
- Say you meet an Eternal being in your Eternal universe
- You notice he is counting
- You ask and he says ‘I’ve always been counting’
- What number is he on?
The answer/solution to this paradox is ...[drumroll please]... oo (infinity!)

Reasoning:
If this being started 100 counts ago, then he would be at 100 right now.
If he started X counts ago, then he would be at X right now.
If he started oo counts ago, then he would be at oo right now.
oo (infinity) is the answer.
He's been counting so he must be on an actual number. He can't be on infinity because it's impossible to count to infinity - no matter how long you count you never reach infinity.
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by RJG »

Devans99 wrote:An actually infinite set has no end which is not allowed for real objects. Real things have to be fully defined; you can't just leave one end nebulous.
"Matter has always existed" is fully defined. It is only the indoctrinated human mind that thinks that things 'must' have a start.

RJG wrote:The answer/solution to this paradox is ...[drumroll please]... oo (infinity!)

Reasoning:
If this being started 100 counts ago, then he would be at 100 right now.
If he started X counts ago, then he would be at X right now.
If he started oo counts ago, then he would be at oo right now.
oo (infinity) is the answer.
Devans99 wrote:He's been counting so he must be on an actual number. He can't be on infinity because it's impossible to count to infinity - no matter how long you count you never reach infinity.
The author of this paradox relies on us being conned into first believing that "always counting" is actually possible. "Always counting" is as self-contradictory (logically impossible) as are "married bachelors" and "square circles".

"Always" implies 'no' starting point, and "counting" implies a starting point. These are mutually exclusive (cannot co-exist) terms. If we wish to play the author's game, then we throw the "always" (infinity) element back at him in our response, as I have done.

Devans99 wrote:...because it's impossible to count to infinity...
...and it's also impossible to count 'from' infinity. "Always counting" is impossible.


"Cut infinity in two and each 'half' is still infinite."
--- Karpel Tunnel
devans99
Posts: 341
Joined: June 17th, 2018, 8:24 pm

Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by devans99 »

RJG wrote: October 30th, 2018, 1:55 pm
Devans99 wrote:An actually infinite set has no end which is not allowed for real objects. Real things have to be fully defined; you can't just leave one end nebulous.
"Matter has always existed" is fully defined. It is only the indoctrinated human mind that thinks that things 'must' have a start.
Matter had a temporal start in the Big Bang.

RJG wrote: October 30th, 2018, 1:55 pm
This author of this paradox relies on us being conned into first believing that "always counting" is actually possible. "Always counting" is as self-contradictory (logically impossible) as are "married bachelors" and "square circles".

"Always" implies 'no' starting point, and "counting" implies a starting point. These are mutually exclusive (cannot co-exist) terms. If we wish to play the author's game, then we throw the "always" (infinity) element back at him in our response, as I have done.


"Cut infinity in two and each 'half' is still infinite."
--- Karpal
Always counting is implying no more than always existing, which is possible. Imagine an eternal being; he would have no start in time so could never exist. Being is possible we therefore conclude Eternal (in time) is not.

Always means Eternally IE its impossible as it has no starting point so you cannot do anything with it because it is undefined. You cannot begin to count, begin to exist, the universe cannot begin to exist; none of these are possible with Eternity (in time) as it has no starting point.
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by RJG »

Devans99 wrote:Matter had a temporal start in the Big Bang.
Did someone tell you this? So then 'what' banged? Was it 'nothing' or 'something'?

Devans99 wrote:Always counting is implying no more than always existing, which is possible.
Counting REQUIRES a start point (i.e. a "0"), ...Existing does not.

Devans99 wrote:Imagine an eternal being; he would have no start in time so could never exist.
...or he could 'always' exist, it's one or the other, ...right?

With no starting point, that which doesn't exist can NEVER exist, and that which does exist has ALWAYS existed, ...agreed?
Post Reply

Return to “Epistemology and Metaphysics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021