Any practical use for Darwin's tree of life?

Use this forum to discuss the philosophy of science. Philosophy of science deals with the assumptions, foundations, and implications of science.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Any practical use for Darwin's tree of life?

Post by Eduk »

I agree. In biology, "evolution" refers to facts such as mutations, natural selection, changes is gene frequency within a population, horizontal gene transfer - but it doesn't refer to the concept of a Universal Common Ancestor (UCA). So yes, evolution is certainly useful in medical science.
Not only are you the arbiter of relevance you are also perfect and the arbiter of the meaning of the word evolution. I guess all the actual biologists got it wrong.
By the way when you talk about UCA are you talking solely about our furthest common ancestor? Or are you ruling out all ancestors. Like do you believe in hereditary diseases? Or do you believe mammals share a common ancestor but not fish? Just trying to make sense of where you decide to draw the line? And what would count as an answer? I mean would the only satisfactory answer be that first ancestor of all life and without that you just aren't going to accept it?
Unknown means unknown.
barata
Posts: 22
Joined: November 9th, 2018, 1:10 pm

Re: Any practical use for Darwin's tree of life?

Post by barata »

is there is no missing link in darwins theory ? huh? is there is no single missing point at all ?
Romanz1
Posts: 41
Joined: September 12th, 2018, 10:15 pm

Re: Any practical use for Darwin's tree of life?

Post by Romanz1 »

barata wrote: November 25th, 2018, 4:20 amis there is no missing link in darwins theory ? huh? is there is no single missing point at all ?
Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about.
Romanz1
Posts: 41
Joined: September 12th, 2018, 10:15 pm

Re: Any practical use for Darwin's tree of life?

Post by Romanz1 »

Eduk wrote: November 24th, 2018, 5:58 pmNot only are you the arbiter of relevance you are also perfect and the arbiter of the meaning of the word evolution. I guess all the actual biologists got it wrong.
The scientifically-accepted definition of "evolution" doesn't include the evolutionary history of life from the first microbe. Look it up.

[/quote]By the way when you talk about UCA are you talking solely about our furthest common ancestor? Or are you ruling out all ancestors. Like do you believe in hereditary diseases? Or do you believe mammals share a common ancestor but not fish? Just trying to make sense of where you decide to draw the line? And what would count as an answer? I mean would the only satisfactory answer be that first ancestor of all life and without that you just aren't going to accept it?
[/quote]
The Darwinian interpretation of the history of life starts from the first microbe, but there is no need to go back that far. In the case of humans, for example, as far as the argument is concerned, we only need to go back to the common ancestor of humans and chimps. Our knowledge of human hereditary diseases is confined to our species, in which case it is not Darwinian history. In order to study and treat these hereditary diseases, no one needs to even be aware of the concept of humans and chimps sharing a common ancestor. It's irrelevant and offers no practical use.
barata
Posts: 22
Joined: November 9th, 2018, 1:10 pm

Re: Any practical use for Darwin's tree of life?

Post by barata »

Romanz1 wrote: November 25th, 2018, 12:18 pm
barata wrote: November 25th, 2018, 4:20 amis there is no missing link in darwins theory ? huh? is there is no single missing point at all ?
Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about.
i meant to say that is that darwin is missing no point at all in his theories ?
barata
Posts: 22
Joined: November 9th, 2018, 1:10 pm

Re: Any practical use for Darwin's tree of life?

Post by barata »

JamesOfSeattle wrote: November 18th, 2018, 2:57 pm In general it seems that understanding how things work is useful, even if understanding how any particular thing works might never get used. You never know what knowledge might be useful. As for practical use of knowing how life evolved on earth, I can see at least

1. Understanding how to make use of evolution-type techniques, such as genetic algorithms

2. Understanding under what circumstances life naturally evolves, and thus being able to decide whether to expect life in the universe, and especially technical life, to be common or rare. If we expect intelligent life to be common, that would change how we approach preparing for space travel, as opposed to expecting other intelligent life to be rare or non-existent.

*
O dear sir can you tell us name of your 10th grandfather, 10th grandfatehrs, grandfathers name ? if not than i dont understand that how can you tell us something about million and million years ago happened?

when you are actually checked at the name of thise 21st grandfatehrs name ? how can you go beyond him ? that is my `1st question ? how ?

and 2nd thing is where are those intelligent people ? who learns something from an failure ? for you have failed in telling us name of your 21st grandfathre.

but still you ( YOU ) will tell us something which happened million upon million years ago. how ? just explain it ( respected sir ) HOW ? :|
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Any practical use for Darwin's tree of life?

Post by Eduk »

Romanz.
Evolution is a big multifaceted topic with vast detail. Common decent is part of the theory of evolution. If you think it isn't then please tell me in detail why, for example which respected scientific bodies text books on evolution don't contain common decent. Or even better which say it isn't part of the theory of evolution.
Also not sure why the creationists get so fixated with Darwin. Darwin didn't single handedly come up with the entire theory of evolution. It's debatable whether he came up with any of it. He certainly did a great deal of detailed analysis though which proved evolution beyond all reasonable doubt. Plus the theory of evolution has greatly progressed in the last few hundred years. I believe Darwin thought that pangenesis was a possibility. He made other errors too. Darwin doesn't own evolution. If you are going to attack evolution then instead attack modern science. By the way if its not clear science has a pretty good track record overall, unlike churches.
Oh and regarding hereditary deseases. No our knowledge of hereditary deasesases is not confined to humans. We regularly run experiments on mice because they share many of our genes. There is proof that what works on a mouse might work on a human. If there was no common decent then there would be no reason to suspect this and no reason to try it. This is also a practical use of common decent.
Unknown means unknown.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Any practical use for Darwin's tree of life?

Post by Steve3007 »

Romanz1 wrote:The scientifically-accepted definition of "evolution" doesn't include the evolutionary history of life from the first microbe. Look it up.
This comment appears to me to betray a misunderstanding as to how scientific theories work. The phenomena which are described by the theory are not explicitly included, by name, within the central principles of the theory. They are derived from its application. For example, the expression:

F = G m1m2 / r2

together with Newton's laws of motion, when applied, resulted in the fact that when I stood on a grassy knoll in Casper Wyoming, USA, on the afternoon of August 21st 2017, the Sun was covered by the Moon. That fact is not explicitly included in the laws of gravitation and dynamics. They don't mention the Sun, the Moon or Casper Wyoming. But it still derives directly from them.

Likewise, the increasing complexity of life - the gradual spreading out into the "space" of all possible living things - derives directly from the principles of Evolution.
barata
Posts: 22
Joined: November 9th, 2018, 1:10 pm

Re: Any practical use for Darwin's tree of life?

Post by barata »

indeed sorry but fun is amazing that no one is interested in real facts.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Any practical use for Darwin's tree of life?

Post by Steve3007 »

barata wrote:indeed sorry but fun is amazing that no one is interested in real facts.
Hi barata. I think part of the problem is that your sentences have an unusual construction. In what sense do you mean that "fun is amazing"? And what are these "real facts" in which you think nobody is interested?
Romanz1
Posts: 41
Joined: September 12th, 2018, 10:15 pm

Re: Any practical use for Darwin's tree of life?

Post by Romanz1 »

Eduk wrote: November 26th, 2018, 4:21 amEvolution is a big multifaceted topic with vast detail. Common decent is part of the theory of evolution. If you think it isn't then please tell me in detail why, for example which respected scientific bodies text books on evolution don't contain common decent. Or even better which say it isn't part of the theory of evolution.
You're barking up the wrong tree here - of course common descent is part of the theory of evolution. but what's that got to do with the OP? For example, which practical use in applied science depends on the information that humans and the other primates share a common ancestor?
Also not sure why the creationists get so fixated with Darwin. Darwin didn't single handedly come up with the entire theory of evolution. It's debatable whether he came up with any of it. He certainly did a great deal of detailed analysis though which proved evolution beyond all reasonable doubt. Plus the theory of evolution has greatly progressed in the last few hundred years. I believe Darwin thought that pangenesis was a possibility. He made other errors too. Darwin doesn't own evolution. If you are going to attack evolution then instead attack modern science. By the way if its not clear science has a pretty good track record overall, unlike churches.
???
Oh and regarding hereditary deseases. No our knowledge of hereditary deasesases is not confined to humans. We regularly run experiments on mice because they share many of our genes. There is proof that what works on a mouse might work on a human. If there was no common decent then there would be no reason to suspect this and no reason to try it. This is also a practical use of common decent.
I encounter this sort of logical fallacy all the time from evolutionists. You make that mistake of conflating a USEFUL FACT with a USELESS CONCLUSION based on that fact. The USEFUL FACT is that humans and mice have similar genetics, which makes mice useful for testing human drugs on. The USELESS CONCLUSION is that humans and mice have similar genetics due to common descent.
Think of it this way, mice are useful for testing human drugs on regardless of what one believes about the history of life - even if everyone believed the world was created one year ago, humans and mice would still have similar genetics and mice would be useful for testing human drugs on.
Romanz1
Posts: 41
Joined: September 12th, 2018, 10:15 pm

Re: Any practical use for Darwin's tree of life?

Post by Romanz1 »

Steve3007 wrote: November 26th, 2018, 4:59 am
Romanz1 wrote:The scientifically-accepted definition of "evolution" doesn't include the evolutionary history of life from the first microbe. Look it up.
This comment appears to me to betray a misunderstanding as to how scientific theories work. The phenomena which are described by the theory are not explicitly included, by name, within the central principles of the theory. They are derived from its application. For example, the expression:

F = G m1m2 / r2

together with Newton's laws of motion, when applied, resulted in the fact that when I stood on a grassy knoll in Casper Wyoming, USA, on the afternoon of August 21st 2017, the Sun was covered by the Moon. That fact is not explicitly included in the laws of gravitation and dynamics. They don't mention the Sun, the Moon or Casper Wyoming. But it still derives directly from them.
Likewise, the increasing complexity of life - the gradual spreading out into the "space" of all possible living things - derives directly from the principles of Evolution.
I take your point. Some definitions of "the theory of evolution" that I've come across have included the history of life on earth, but such a conclusion is probably not appropriate in such a definition. So the definition of "evolution" is the same as the definition of "the theory of evolution".
Romanz1
Posts: 41
Joined: September 12th, 2018, 10:15 pm

Re: Any practical use for Darwin's tree of life?

Post by Romanz1 »

barata wrote: November 26th, 2018, 1:12 pmindeed sorry but fun is amazing that no one is interested in real facts.
No offence, but would it be fair to assume that English is not your first language?
barata
Posts: 22
Joined: November 9th, 2018, 1:10 pm

Re: Any practical use for Darwin's tree of life?

Post by barata »

Romanz1 wrote: November 27th, 2018, 3:59 pm
barata wrote: November 26th, 2018, 1:12 pmindeed sorry but fun is amazing that no one is interested in real facts.
No offence, but would it be fair to assume that English is not your first language?
although my english is not very grammatically, rhetorically correct and Rascals are concerned with grammar. Actual workers are concerned with thoughts.

and ( fun is ) you are brainwashed by mass propaganda of british / american media. anyways leave it in side.

and let us come to the point. that how anyone can intelligent person will accept something from an failure ? who is already checked at the name of hsi 10th grandfathers, 10th grandfatehrs, grandfather ? but still fun is people are accepting what he is speaking about things which happened million and million years ago.

how he can speak so factually ? any random nonsense can say i think, perphaps, maybe, by chance, but why i or any intelligent person will take the worlds of the damn idiot who is checked at the name of his 21st grandfatehr ? but still fun is we have to take as for granted nonsense which is coming from him about something which happened million and million years ago.

amazingly brainwashed people are. and how can you take words of an failure ? for those who are telling about evolution are all failures.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Any practical use for Darwin's tree of life?

Post by Eduk »

Romanz you are completely missing the point that I made earlier. Theories such as evolution lead research. They help to decide which theories are more or less likely and which research to undertake.
Why assume a mouse and human have similar genetics unless you test them. Why test them if you have no belief they are similar.
If the scientific consensus a hundred odd years ago was that animals were kinds and God did it. Then we wouldnt have modern biology. We wouldn't have discovered DNA or known what it did. Plus countless other advances.
Unknown means unknown.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Science”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021