Theory of Natural Eternal Consciousness

Use this philosophy forum to discuss and debate general philosophy topics that don't fit into one of the other categories.

This forum is NOT for factual, informational or scientific questions about philosophy (e.g. "What year was Socrates born?"). Those kind of questions can be asked in the off-topic section.
User avatar
Elgruaro
New Trial Member
Posts: 2
Joined: September 18th, 2012, 7:50 pm

Theory of Natural Eternal Consciousness

Post by Elgruaro »

I've been reading about a theory from Dr. Bryan Ehlmann which supports a "natural afterlife." Basically, he suggests that if non-existence follows after death, then we will be forever locked in a state of experience comprising of our very last moment. He uses the following thought experiment:

"You’re totally engrossed in watching an extremely exhilarating movie. Then, without knowing, you unexpectedly, without any perceived drowsiness, fall asleep. For you the movie has been unknowingly paused, while in reality (that for others) it continues on. Until you wake up, you still believe you’re watching that movie."

He suggests that because we will never perceive any indication that our consciousness has ceased when we die, we will continue this final state of consciousness forever and that in this state, time will become infinite.

Some of my thoughts on the topic:

- There will no longer be a self to consciously experience this last moment, so how can it be that this moment will continue forever?
- How specific is this static moment? Is it an everlasting experience of the second before we die? A millisecond? This quickly becomes an irrational thing to discuss.
- What if we die in some horrible way and are suffering until our last moments? (e.g., burned alive, suffocation, etc.) If we take this theory seriously, then that provides some pretty daunting implications. An eternity of extreme pain locked into a single moment? Yikes.

Overall, I don't know what to think about the plausibility of this theory. It makes sense to me that without a transferred state to let me know that I am no longer conscious, then from my point of view, I won't know that my final moment of consciousness has ended. But as mentioned, how can consciousness exist without an entity to experience it?

What do you guys think?
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Theory of Natural Eternal Consciousness

Post by Eduk »

Doesn't make any sense to me. I think you've already pointed out some of the issues. I would add one. when I go to sleep I don't perceive a locked moment, I might have a dream for example.
Unknown means unknown.
User avatar
bucky
Posts: 21
Joined: January 13th, 2019, 7:58 am

Re: Theory of Natural Eternal Consciousness

Post by bucky »

You're definately right. The thought experiment doesn't work:

"You’re totally engrossed in watching an extremely exhilarating movie. Then, without knowing, you unexpectedly, without any perceived drowsiness, fall asleep. For you the movie has been unknowingly paused, while in reality (that for others) it continues on. Until you wake up, you still believe you’re watching that movie."

This is a false analogy because when I am asleep, I still exist. I don't temporarily go into a state of non-existence and then begin to exist again when I wake up. There's nothing about being asleep that is like being non-existent.

It sounds like he seems to think of non-existence as some kind of qualia, something which you can experience which is not what non-existence is. A programmer might say that he's confusing a NULL value with a 0 value.
User avatar
Felix
Posts: 3117
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: Theory of Natural Eternal Consciousness

Post by Felix »

Sounds like he was deeply affected by the movie, the Sixth Sense.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Wmhoerr
Posts: 46
Joined: January 3rd, 2019, 1:51 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell
Contact:

Re: Theory of Natural Eternal Consciousness

Post by Wmhoerr »

A problem with death is that were anything to remain, you need to say where this remainder is stored. Here we get to the "ether" idea where the remainder on death goes. This was a popular idea once with Rupert Sheldrake and his "morphic fields" but he is mostly fogotten today. He was unable to explain where the morphic field was. A similar idea was Jung's "collective unconsciousness" but he did not say how the ideas are passed between people. Propositions are one thing, but these days people want detail.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Theory of Natural Eternal Consciousness

Post by Sy Borg »

I think it pertains to the time dilation as observed in dreams. The dilation is not actual but subjective (that is, the time relation between events with the outside world is 1:1), caused by the discarding of trivial information, much like compressing a file to MPEG or MP3. That's why in a dream you might find yourself in the attic one moment and at Aunt Ethel's place the next as if teleported.

So, in the end we may well have a sense of one scene feeling like an exceptionally long time. The subjective side is only known by NDEs but that still isn't quite death, so the area is necessarily speculative.
User avatar
JamesOfSeattle
Premium Member
Posts: 509
Joined: October 16th, 2015, 11:20 pm

Re: Theory of Natural Eternal Consciousness

Post by JamesOfSeattle »

For me, the theory in question (and many people) suffers from a misunderstanding of “conscious state”. Consciousness is about processes. If everything is static, nothing changing, then there is no consciousness. A “conscious state”, then, is a dynamic state in which a particular conscious-type process is happening over and over. Death would result in the cessation of all such conscious-type processes.

*
User avatar
Burning ghost
Posts: 3065
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: Theory of Natural Eternal Consciousness

Post by Burning ghost »

It isn’t a theory.
AKA badgerjelly
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Theory of Natural Eternal Consciousness

Post by Sy Borg »

Could be, James, although it's possible that the subjective sense of time dilation becomes highly significant towards the end.
Jklint
Posts: 1719
Joined: February 23rd, 2012, 3:06 am

Re: Theory of Natural Eternal Consciousness

Post by Jklint »

Elgruaro wrote: January 13th, 2019, 10:44 pm I've been reading about a theory from Dr. Bryan Ehlmann which supports a "natural afterlife." Basically, he suggests that if non-existence follows after death, then we will be forever locked in a state of experience comprising of our very last moment. He uses the following thought experiment:

"You’re totally engrossed in watching an extremely exhilarating movie. Then, without knowing, you unexpectedly, without any perceived drowsiness, fall asleep. For you the movie has been unknowingly paused, while in reality (that for others) it continues on. Until you wake up, you still believe you’re watching that movie."
This is one of the dumbest theories I ever encountered. One wonders how many bona fide idiots with "DR" titles are actually out there! The fallacy is so inherent that one wonders what his definition of brain dead would be.
User avatar
simmerdown
New Trial Member
Posts: 3
Joined: January 14th, 2019, 4:44 pm

Re: Theory of Natural Eternal Consciousness

Post by simmerdown »

Even if this theory is flawed, I'm still left with some pretty major difficulties regarding the thought of death. I realize that if we take a literalist conception of non-existence seriously, then non-existence can't be better, worse, nor the same as existence. We all (irrationally) project something onto nothing when thinking about the outcome of our death, when there really is no outcome. So by this logic, there is no point in death, yet no point in living. Yet, when I play out thought experiments in my head, I seem to attribute some value to life. For example, if I were to choose between a day of torture or being exempt from it via a dreamless sleep where I perceive nothing (i.e., as soon as I close my eyes, I instantaneously jump to my next waking moment), I would choose the latter option. Conversely, given the option between a day filled with pleasure and the aforementioned sleep, I would choose the former.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Theory of Natural Eternal Consciousness

Post by Eduk »

The obvious way to imagine it is to remember the billions of years before you existed. Most people don't have a problem with this non existence.
Also I don't see why non existence after death means life is meaningless or without value?
Unknown means unknown.
User avatar
phenomenal_graffiti
Posts: 125
Joined: July 27th, 2009, 2:32 am
Favorite Philosopher: George Berkeley

Re: Theory of Natural Eternal Consciousness

Post by phenomenal_graffiti »

Do we know death results in non-existence? None of us had died (yet) so the assertion certainly does cone from direct experience. Do things come into and go out of existence? If so, how?
We are currently living within the mind of Jesus Christ as he is currently being crucified. One may think there is no God, or if one believes in God, one thinks one lives outside the mind of Christ in a post-crucifixion present.

In other news...
User avatar
simmerdown
New Trial Member
Posts: 3
Joined: January 14th, 2019, 4:44 pm

Re: Theory of Natural Eternal Consciousness

Post by simmerdown »

Eduk wrote: January 16th, 2019, 4:18 am The obvious way to imagine it is to remember the billions of years before you existed. Most people don't have a problem with this non existence.
Also I don't see why non existence after death means life is meaningless or without value?
You could argue that non existence after death implies life has no value because there is no correlate in which we could say we would be better or worse off. We can't say it is neutral value, because that would imply a value where there is none.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Theory of Natural Eternal Consciousness

Post by Eduk »

You could argue that. But often actions speak louder than words. In my experience people seem to value their existence very highly.
Unknown means unknown.
Post Reply

Return to “General Philosophy”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021