early wittgenstein on metaphysics
- Arjen
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Re: early wittgenstein on metaphysics
Do you understand what I mean and that this is what Wittgenstein is talking about?
~Immanuel Kant
- Arjen
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Re: early wittgenstein on metaphysics
This is how I read him and have always read him. I also think to remember being taught this, but my memory is too dim to state that with certainty. It, at least, shows why solipsism is an extreme, as opposed to what he makes of it, by shying away from the subjective 'I' of the solipsist.
~Immanuel Kant
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Re: early wittgenstein on metaphysics
We can’t. That makes no sense to me. It is the fact that it is his world, the world of the subject, of the subjective ‘I’, the world as the I alone, solus ipse know it, that makes it the world of the solipsist.… can we discuss the fact that his 'World' is the world of the solipsist, without the subjective 'I'?
There is for W. a fundamental distinction between the factual world and “my world”. In one sense my world sets a limit to the world, for there is always more to the world than what I know and can say. In another sense my world sets the limit of what I alone, solus ipse, experience. My world is not about the facts of the world but the meaning and value the world as a whole has for me alone, solus ipse .That means that it loses it's metaphysical properties and only leaves the complete whole that he calls 'world', in the sense that it is that same thing for everyone and the object or objective 'world'.
- Arjen
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Re: early wittgenstein on metaphysics
May I ask you how you think Wittgenstein explains 'my world' while not believing in private language, nor in the metaphysical subject?
~Immanuel Kant
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Re: early wittgenstein on metaphysics
The world is the subject's world, but it transcends the subject's perspective. It is one of the two "godheads" W. speaks about in Notebooks. The other godhead is the subject. And because there are two godheads, one is not enough. So: (1) no world = no subject = nothing, and (2) no subject = no world = nothing.
This is my interpretation. What is yours?
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Re: early wittgenstein on metaphysics
I did not deny the metaphysical subject. In an earlier post I said:May I ask you how you think Wittgenstein explains 'my world' while not believing in private language, nor in the metaphysical subject?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15942&sid=8adbd19da ... 15#p328152The metaphysical self is the “I” that experiences, the “I” of “my world” and “my language”. The "I" of solipsism (T 5.62, 5.64)
What I said is that he rejects the transcendental subject. The transcendental conditions that make possible knowledge and experience are logic and ethics. There is for W. no conditions of mind - no categories of the understanding, no unity of apperception. as Ramsey put it , Wittgenstein’s method was to:
This was a deficiency that Wittgenstein eventually came to acknowledge. It is one of the main differences between the Tractatus and Investigations.construct a logic, and do all our philosophical analysis entirely unselfconsciously, thinking all the time of the facts and not about our thinking about them … (1929 draft paper titled “Philosophy”).
In the Tractatus he talks about “my language”, but my language is not a private language. Language is, according to the Tractatus, structured by logic and pictures the facts of the world. There is nothing private about it. Nothing individual about it. 'My language' like 'my world' is a solipsistic limit.
Perhaps you are using the term ‘private language’ in an idiosyncratic way.
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Re: early wittgenstein on metaphysics
The statement from the Notebooks:The world is the subject's world, but it transcends the subject's perspective. It is one of the two "godheads" W. speaks about in Notebooks. The other godhead is the subject. And because there are two godheads, one is not enough. So: (1) no world = no subject = nothing, and (2) no subject = no world = nothing.
This is my interpretation. What is yours?
W. is quite clear about the independence of the will from the world.There are two godheads: the world and my independent “I”. (NB 8.7.16)
The world is independent of my will. (6.373)
They are not interdependent. The “I” is outside the facts of the world. There is no logical or causal connection between them.
The facts in logical space are the world. (1.13)
The independent “I” is not a fact in logical space. It plays no role in the world. The facts of the world are independent of the subject. It is the subject’s world that ceases to be when the subject dies. The subject’s world is not the world of facts in logical space. The world of facts in logical space is independent of the “I”.Belief in the causal nexus is superstition. (5.1361)
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Re: early wittgenstein on metaphysics
So your interpretation is that there can be a world with its logic but without the subject? Logic without anyone using logic? Of course there cannot be any logical or causal connection between the subject and the world, but isn't it possible that there is an ontological interdependence? Why did W. speak about "two godheads" if one of them was enough? My view is that W. saw the being of the subject as an ontological precondition for the being of the world. Maybe I misinterpret him, but it is too late to ask how W. himself saw it. Anyway, I think my way of seeing it is reasonable. The subject is an abstraction without the world and the world is an abstraction without the subject. And abstractions cannot exist. I do not believe in a Platonic heaven where logic resides and where the Universe resides in its silent meaningless existence. For even its meaningless existence would be meaningless for us, because only we can say what is meaningless and what is not. This is very obvious for me, and knowing that W. was a deep thinker, I would not be surprised if it was also obvious for him.
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Re: early wittgenstein on metaphysics
Yes.So your interpretation is that there can be a world with its logic but without the subject?
Yes. The logical structure of the world is independent of and makes possible its use. That structure is the form of simple objects. It is that structure that makes it possible for them to combine to create states of affairs. It is that structure that makes it possible to picture states of affairs in propositions.Logic without anyone using logic?
If their interdependence is neither logical nor causal then what, according to Wittgenstein,it is? How do you move from there being a world and subjects to the interdependence of world and subject? What is the basis of their interdependence? There is a relationship between the world and the independent "I", but essential to that relationship is their independence. If it were otherwise the I would not be the "independent 'I'''.… but isn't it possible that there is an ontological interdependence?
Because one of them is not enough. The world and my experience of it, its meaning and value for me are not the same. They are two different things.Why did W. speak about "two godheads" if one of them was enough?
That is a remark about you. For W. logic resides in the objects that make up the world. It does not have an independent existence elsewhere. Objects contain their logical possibilities. Meaning comes into play only with a subject for whom the world has meaning.I do not believe in a Platonic heaven where logic resides and where the Universe resides in its silent meaningless existence.
A meaningless existence would be one without meaning. Meaning comes into play only with the subject. A world without subjects would be a world without meaning. But there are subjects and the world was meaning for those subjects, hence two god-heads.For even its meaningless existence would be meaningless for us, because only we can say what is meaningless and what is not.
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Re: early wittgenstein on metaphysics
Perhaps W. meant that there cannot be (1) causal dependence because the subject does not belong to the world, (2) logical dependence because logic only comes with the world. So what is left is the question of ontological dependence or independence. If the answer, according to Wittgenstein, is independence, then our views differ. I find it impossible to think of the universe without a subjective perspective. What kind of being has such a universe? Why do we want to speak of such a universe? What is the logical justification to posit its possibility?Fooloso4 wrote: ↑January 29th, 2019, 2:16 pm If their interdependence is neither logical nor causal then what, according to Wittgenstein,it is? How do you move from there being a world and subjects to the interdependence of world and subject? What is the basis of their interdependence? There is a relationship between the world and the independent "I", but essential to that relationship is their independence. If it were otherwise the I would not be the "independent 'I'''.
I do not understand why it is so difficult to see what is obvious: the lack of subjective perspective means nothingness.
- Arjen
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Re: early wittgenstein on metaphysics
Well, the idio(t) certainly seems aptly pointed at me.Fooloso4 wrote: ↑January 29th, 2019, 10:44 am In the Tractatus he talks about “my language”, but my language is not a private language. Language is, according to the Tractatus, structured by logic and pictures the facts of the world. There is nothing private about it. Nothing individual about it. 'My language' like 'my world' is a solipsistic limit.
Perhaps you are using the term ‘private language’ in an idiosyncratic way.
I am going to try and find some more information.
I stand open to learn and I will be reading what you 2 are writing as soon as I absorb some terminology.
It might be my memory, but I never heard of the notebooks. I am now checking on google books to see what this means exactly. It certainly looks like fooloso4 had it right all along. Thanks for mentioning this. I am opening my mind to try and consume some more insights.Tamminen wrote: ↑January 29th, 2019, 8:40 am The world is the subject's world, but it transcends the subject's perspective. It is one of the two "godheads" W. speaks about in Notebooks. The other godhead is the subject. And because there are two godheads, one is not enough. So: (1) no world = no subject = nothing, and (2) no subject = no world = nothing.
This is my interpretation. What is yours?
@Fooloso4 and Tamminen :
I am happy to read you 2 talking. If either of you knows of a good online resource to absorb knowledge about the 2 godheads, please do point me towards it.
~Immanuel Kant
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Re: early wittgenstein on metaphysics
As far as I can see, that is the case.If the answer, according to Wittgenstein, is independence, then our views differ.
In the Tractatus W. thought that logical relations were sufficient. He came to reject that assumption.I find it impossible to think of the universe without a subjective perspective.
That depend on how you define being.What kind of being has such a universe?
There may be various reasons including trying to understand what the universe was like before we were here to speak about it.Why do we want to speak of such a universe?
The justification is empirical, but all justification presupposes the existence of a thinking, seeing subject that provided justification.What is the logical justification to posit its possibility?
It is not difficult to see why one would make such a claim . Without a subject there is nothing to whom anything would be present. It does not follow, however, that the physical world would no longer exist, unless you define existence as presence.I do not understand why it is so difficult to see what is obvious: the lack of subjective perspective means nothingness.
The reality is, though, that there are subjects and that without subjects this discussion could not take place. That is an ineliminable condition for any discussion of existence. It is only an ineliminable condition for existence if one defines existence in such a way that what exists must be present to a subject. One obvious problem with that is that it leaves nothing unknown, nothing that has not already be discovered; or that what is discovered comes to be by being discovered, that what is not come to be by being perceived.
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Re: early wittgenstein on metaphysics
It is easy to make the mistake of seeing a temporal slice of the universe as a universe. But it is only an abstraction of a universe, and the question remains if the whole universe can be without a subjective perspective.
No, this is a misunderstanding. The necessity of subjecthood does not mean that everything there is must be present to a subject. It only means that everything must be in the same and only universe as the subject. There are lots of things that no subject ever perceives, lots of things that are not present to anybody. But all things in the universe are connected to each other and in this sense indirectly present to the subject, if there are subjects. And if it were possible that there are no subjects, we would have a problem so obvious that it is hard to see how anybody can stand it: positing nothingness by eliminating ourselves from reality. It seems that everybody does not see the paradox here, and I am wondering why, because as I said, it is so obvious.Fooloso4 wrote: ↑January 29th, 2019, 4:28 pm It is not difficult to see why one would make such a claim . Without a subject there is nothing to whom anything would be present. It does not follow, however, that the physical world would no longer exist, unless you define existence as presence.
The reality is, though, that there are subjects and that without subjects this discussion could not take place. That is an ineliminable condition for any discussion of existence. It is only an ineliminable condition for existence if one defines existence in such a way that what exists must be present to a subject. One obvious problem with that is that it leaves nothing unknown, nothing that has not already be discovered; or that what is discovered comes to be by being discovered, that what is not come to be by being perceived.
- Arjen
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Re: early wittgenstein on metaphysics
Isn't that solipsism again?Tamminen wrote: ↑January 29th, 2019, 5:22 pm No, this is a misunderstanding. The necessity of subjecthood does not mean that everything there is must be present to a subject. It only means that everything must be in the same and only universe as the subject. There are lots of things that no subject ever perceives, lots of things that are not present to anybody. But all things in the universe are connected to each other and in this sense indirectly present to the subject, if there are subjects. And if it were possible that there are no subjects, we would have a problem so obvious that it is hard to see how anybody can stand it: positing nothingness by eliminating ourselves from reality. It seems that everybody does not see the paradox here, and I am wondering why, because as I said, it is so obvious.
Removing the subjects and then ending up with nothing?
~Immanuel Kant
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Re: early wittgenstein on metaphysics
What we know is that the whole universe is not without a subjective perspective.It is easy to make the mistake of seeing a temporal slice of the universe as a universe. But it is only an abstraction of a universe, and the question remains if the whole universe can be without a subjective perspective.
My opinion is that subjectivity requires consciousness and consciousness is an emergent property of some entities in the universe, and so, there was a time, a “temporal slice” when there was not a subjective perspective. It was out of this universe without a subjective perspective that a subject perspective emerged. They are not interdependent, the latter is dependent on the former.
By we I assume you mean subjects, but no subjects no problem. Who would it be a problem for?And if it were possible that there are no subjects, we would have a problem …
Only something that is could posit nothingness, but it would be self-refuting. In any can, it is you assumption that a world without subjects means nothingness. I don’t agree.… positing nothingness by eliminating ourselves from reality.
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