What happens to us when we die?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Post Reply
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6036
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Consul »

Atla wrote: February 3rd, 2019, 4:28 amMatter and energy are equivalent…
No, mass and energy are.

The Equivalence of Mass and Energy: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/equivME/
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Sy Borg »

Jan Sand wrote: February 4th, 2019, 1:27 am"Flying about" implies motion and without time there is no motion.
Amorphous ripples of particle-less gunk that would be colliding chaotically, a bit like churning waters.
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Atla »

Consul wrote: February 4th, 2019, 1:28 am
Atla wrote: February 3rd, 2019, 4:28 amMatter and energy are equivalent…
No, mass and energy are.

The Equivalence of Mass and Energy: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/equivME/
Oh yeah that's what I wanted to write.
True philosophy points to the Moon
Jan Sand
Posts: 658
Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Jan Sand »

Apparently you do not understand the concept of dimension. A dot is a fixed position. There is only one place for it to be so it has no dimension. A line presents the possibility of being any place on that line. The word "dimension"implies measurement and if an origin point on the line is chosen, one measurement can locate any point on that line from that chosen origin so a line is one dimensional. On a plane surface it requires two measurements from a chosen origin. A volume is three dimensional since three measurements must be given to locate a point distant from the origin. Time is a fourth dimension since any point within a volume that can move requires three measurements in space and one in time to locate that point since time is integral with movement. Each added dimension adds an additional degree of freedom to that point and therefore requires an additional measurement for location. We may live in a five dimensional universe and, if so, a "free will" may be able to perceive other universes in which to permit choices. I have no idea as to how I might be able to move into other variations of this universe so free will seems unlikely to me but I have an open mind on the matter.
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Atla »

Greta wrote: February 4th, 2019, 1:03 am We don't really understand time, though, do we? Relativity tells us that future and the past are the same, already part of an existing fabric of reality. Meanwhile retroactivity has been observed at quantum scales. We figure that there was no time before the BB introduced radioactive decay, rotations and orbits.

Imagine if, after the BB, amorphous energy just pulled apart in the expanding space and dissipated without ever forming particles - no decay, rotation or orbits, just stuff flying randomly about. Would we say such a universe was timeless or that it had a different kind of time?
I see it the other way around, the apparent retroactivity of quantum phenomena shows that the universe is actually timeless (and spaceless, nonlocality), so the spacetime of relativity is probably not fundamental, just a necessary kind of arrangement of the quantum world for humans to exist. As for the classical psychological sensation of space and time, those are rather illusions, ways how the human experience is constructed.

As such there isn't much reason to believe that the BB was an actual beginning. At one point, our part of the universe used to be condensed into that singularity.
True philosophy points to the Moon
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Sy Borg »

Atla wrote: February 4th, 2019, 2:49 am
Greta wrote: February 4th, 2019, 1:03 am We don't really understand time, though, do we? Relativity tells us that future and the past are the same, already part of an existing fabric of reality. Meanwhile retroactivity has been observed at quantum scales. We figure that there was no time before the BB introduced radioactive decay, rotations and orbits.

Imagine if, after the BB, amorphous energy just pulled apart in the expanding space and dissipated without ever forming particles - no decay, rotation or orbits, just stuff flying randomly about. Would we say such a universe was timeless or that it had a different kind of time?
I see it the other way around, the apparent retroactivity of quantum phenomena shows that the universe is actually timeless (and spaceless, nonlocality), so the spacetime of relativity is probably not fundamental, just a necessary kind of arrangement of the quantum world for humans to exist. As for the classical psychological sensation of space and time, those are rather illusions, ways how the human experience is constructed.

As such there isn't much reason to believe that the BB was an actual beginning. At one point, our part of the universe used to be condensed into that singularity.
I'm not sure the above is incompatible with my thoughts above, just taking different angles.

I see spacetime as simply being expanding space (hyperspace/the bulk/quantum foam) that's infused with the stuff of the big bang. Take the stuff out (or diffuse it as per the projected heat death of the universe) from the quantum foam and time as we know it is gone. The quantum foam is purported to basically consist of constantly and instantly annihilating ripples (virtual particles), so the appearances and disappearances presumably happen over some extremely small timeframe, but it's more like snippets of time appearing and immediately disappearing, as if each ripple was a quick big bang that immediately creates and destroys time as opposed to the flow of time intrinsic to energy and matter.
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Atla »

Greta wrote: February 4th, 2019, 6:11 am
Atla wrote: February 4th, 2019, 2:49 am
I see it the other way around, the apparent retroactivity of quantum phenomena shows that the universe is actually timeless (and spaceless, nonlocality), so the spacetime of relativity is probably not fundamental, just a necessary kind of arrangement of the quantum world for humans to exist. As for the classical psychological sensation of space and time, those are rather illusions, ways how the human experience is constructed.

As such there isn't much reason to believe that the BB was an actual beginning. At one point, our part of the universe used to be condensed into that singularity.
I'm not sure the above is incompatible with my thoughts above, just taking different angles.

I see spacetime as simply being expanding space (hyperspace/the bulk/quantum foam) that's infused with the stuff of the big bang. Take the stuff out (or diffuse it as per the projected heat death of the universe) from the quantum foam and time as we know it is gone. The quantum foam is purported to basically consist of constantly and instantly annihilating ripples (virtual particles), so the appearances and disappearances presumably happen over some extremely small timeframe, but it's more like snippets of time appearing and immediately disappearing, as if each ripple was a quick big bang that immediately creates and destroys time as opposed to the flow of time intrinsic to energy and matter.
Not sure what you mean, the Big Bang stuff and the quantum foam are two forms of the same thing. And time as we know is gone even if we only look at the Big Bang stuff.
True philosophy points to the Moon
User avatar
Polaris
New Trial Member
Posts: 2
Joined: April 7th, 2020, 7:24 am

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Polaris »

This topic is interesting and important. For that reason and because I have some input of my own, I'm going to revive it.

What can be said for certain about death is that it won't be, for the person who dies, a total annihilation of him or herself and the universe. This is apparent for various reasons including the following:

1. Nothingness presumes consciousness. If I say a jar is empty, for example, what is there in front of me, objectively speaking? There are air molecules, clear glass, the table on which the jar rests. What I don't find there as an object is a void. A void gives off no light, no scent--in short, no sensory data. So I couldn't possibly have a void there before me as an object of my awareness. In what sense is there ever a void, then? There is a void only in the sense that I can imagine a different state of affairs than the one given to me. I can imagine the empty jar containing honey, for example. The emptiness is a phenomenon that depends on the contrast of my own state and the real state of affairs. It requires a consciousness and a world for it to be conscious of.

2. If I say that all will become nothing, what do I really mean? When I say it, I don't conceive of a genuine annihilation of all things, one that would necessarily render my very utterance nonexistent. What I conceive of, really, is a certain quality or set of qualities. I feel still, quiet; my mind's eye perceives a dimness. It can all be described in positive terms. It is negative only in the sense that it is less than what I am accustomed to. It isn't a genuine, absolute void, and it can't be because if I really grasped a genuine, absolute void, I wouldn't be able to speak or think. It is not only impossible to say that all will be annihilated, it is impossible to believe.

3. Nothingness has a relative rather than independent existence. Coldness is not a thing; it is merely the absence of warmth. Darkness is not a thing; it is merely the absence of light. Nothingness is always the lack of a thing; nothingness never stands on its own.

If death isn't nothingness, what is it? It is a room that many have entered but that none have ever returned from. The only way to find out what lies beyond the door is to step through it yourself.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7932
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by LuckyR »

Polaris wrote: April 7th, 2020, 8:28 am This topic is interesting and important. For that reason and because I have some input of my own, I'm going to revive it.

What can be said for certain about death is that it won't be, for the person who dies, a total annihilation of him or herself and the universe. This is apparent for various reasons including the following:

1. Nothingness presumes consciousness. If I say a jar is empty, for example, what is there in front of me, objectively speaking? There are air molecules, clear glass, the table on which the jar rests. What I don't find there as an object is a void. A void gives off no light, no scent--in short, no sensory data. So I couldn't possibly have a void there before me as an object of my awareness. In what sense is there ever a void, then? There is a void only in the sense that I can imagine a different state of affairs than the one given to me. I can imagine the empty jar containing honey, for example. The emptiness is a phenomenon that depends on the contrast of my own state and the real state of affairs. It requires a consciousness and a world for it to be conscious of.

2. If I say that all will become nothing, what do I really mean? When I say it, I don't conceive of a genuine annihilation of all things, one that would necessarily render my very utterance nonexistent. What I conceive of, really, is a certain quality or set of qualities. I feel still, quiet; my mind's eye perceives a dimness. It can all be described in positive terms. It is negative only in the sense that it is less than what I am accustomed to. It isn't a genuine, absolute void, and it can't be because if I really grasped a genuine, absolute void, I wouldn't be able to speak or think. It is not only impossible to say that all will be annihilated, it is impossible to believe.

3. Nothingness has a relative rather than independent existence. Coldness is not a thing; it is merely the absence of warmth. Darkness is not a thing; it is merely the absence of light. Nothingness is always the lack of a thing; nothingness never stands on its own.

If death isn't nothingness, what is it? It is a room that many have entered but that none have ever returned from. The only way to find out what lies beyond the door is to step through it yourself.
Very poetic, but kind of short on logic, though your red statement is clearly completely accurate
"As usual... it depends."
gater
Posts: 267
Joined: September 6th, 2019, 12:02 am

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by gater »

We rot in the ground, you are done, finished, it's over. You will not have another thought or experience.
The matter the makes your body, will become part of the Sun when it explodes, and will be used again, and again, as it has been - forever.
BigBango
Posts: 343
Joined: March 15th, 2018, 6:15 pm

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by BigBango »

gater wrote: April 10th, 2020, 8:02 pm We rot in the ground, you are done, finished, it's over. You will not have another thought or experience.
The matter the makes your body, will become part of the Sun when it explodes, and will be used again, and again, as it has been - forever.
Your lack of knowledge about the complete physical and mental nature of the body is not evidence that nothing remains after the death of what you know about our physical/mental being.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7932
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by LuckyR »

BigBango wrote: April 13th, 2020, 9:35 pm
gater wrote: April 10th, 2020, 8:02 pm We rot in the ground, you are done, finished, it's over. You will not have another thought or experience.
The matter the makes your body, will become part of the Sun when it explodes, and will be used again, and again, as it has been - forever.
Your lack of knowledge about the complete physical and mental nature of the body is not evidence that nothing remains after the death of what you know about our physical/mental being.
Very true, we are all equally ignorant in this area.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Sculptor1 »

BigBango wrote: April 13th, 2020, 9:35 pm
gater wrote: April 10th, 2020, 8:02 pm We rot in the ground, you are done, finished, it's over. You will not have another thought or experience.
The matter the makes your body, will become part of the Sun when it explodes, and will be used again, and again, as it has been - forever.
Your lack of knowledge about the complete physical and mental nature of the body is not evidence that nothing remains after the death of what you know about our physical/mental being.
Ad hominem.
The fact is that science knows a great deal about the difference between a living body and a dead one, and what happens when you die.
There is great evidence; in fact ALL the evidence points to the simple fact that death is the end of the person, and all the organisation of the matter that makes a person what they are.
The rest is just wishful thinking.
BigBango
Posts: 343
Joined: March 15th, 2018, 6:15 pm

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by BigBango »

Sculptor1 wrote: April 14th, 2020, 6:48 am
BigBango wrote: April 13th, 2020, 9:35 pm

Your lack of knowledge about the complete physical and mental nature of the body is not evidence that nothing remains after the death of what you know about our physical/mental being.
Ad hominem.
The fact is that science knows a great deal about the difference between a living body and a dead one, and what happens when you die.
There is great evidence; in fact ALL the evidence points to the simple fact that death is the end of the person, and all the organisation of the matter that makes a person what they are.
The rest is just wishful thinking.
Actually Sculptor, while science knows a great deal about the difference between a living body and a dead one and what happens when you die it knows little about the mental and physical roots of a living being. Knowing a great deal about the difference between a living body and a dead one is a good start but it is not definitive. Again the lack of knowledge of the nature of our mental/ physical nature is not evidence that there is no deeper nature that science has yet to understand. Science has at its disposal only very simple metaphysical constructs that disqualifies it from understanding the real nature of the roots of our metaphysical being.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Sculptor1 »

BigBango wrote: April 15th, 2020, 5:01 am
Sculptor1 wrote: April 14th, 2020, 6:48 am
Ad hominem.
The fact is that science knows a great deal about the difference between a living body and a dead one, and what happens when you die.
There is great evidence; in fact ALL the evidence points to the simple fact that death is the end of the person, and all the organisation of the matter that makes a person what they are.
The rest is just wishful thinking.
Actually Sculptor, while science knows a great deal about the difference between a living body and a dead one and what happens when you die it knows little about the mental and physical roots of a living being.
Wrong again.
Science knows more about that than at any time in history and it continues to learn. Anything you say without reference to this science is idle speculation.
Knowing a great deal about the difference between a living body and a dead one is a good start but it is not definitive. Again the lack of knowledge of the nature of our mental/ physical nature is not evidence that there is no deeper nature that science has yet to understand.
Double negative weasel words.
Science has at its disposal only very simple...
simple compared to what, exactly?
...metaphysical constructs that disqualifies it from understanding the real nature of the roots of our metaphysical being.
So what? Even if this were true, there is nothing you could possibly offer this thread which would add to that knowledge.
Post Reply

Return to “Epistemology and Metaphysics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021