The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Post Reply
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by Atla »

The catch with "loop time" or "circular time" is that it predicts that the expansion of our observable universe will necessarily reverse eventually. (Which isn't that implausible I think, seeing how the expansion rate already changed at least 3-4 times in the past, so such an event will probably happen again.)
True philosophy points to the Moon
Tamminen
Posts: 1347
Joined: April 19th, 2016, 2:53 pm

Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by Tamminen »

ubojico
I would say time is infinite in both directions.
My past is a series of events that really happened. I cannot change them. If someone asks "From where did you come here?" I can say "I walked the road from place A." Then that someone may ask "From where did you come to place A?", and I can say "I walked the road from place B". But we cannot continue this endlessly into the past. The journey must have started somewhere. My past and my future differ in this respect. I can look into my future ad infinitum, but not into my past, because my past is real but my future is not.
User avatar
ubojico
New Trial Member
Posts: 9
Joined: April 11th, 2019, 10:54 am

Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by ubojico »

Tamminen wrote: May 6th, 2019, 1:36 pm @ubojico
I would say time is infinite in both directions.
My past is a series of events that really happened. I cannot change them. If someone asks "From where did you come here?" I can say "I walked the road from place A." Then that someone may ask "From where did you come to place A?", and I can say "I walked the road from place B". But we cannot continue this endlessly into the past. The journey must have started somewhere. My past and my future differ in this respect. I can look into my future ad infinitum, but not into my past, because my past is real but my future is not.
You can see an end in the future with that line of reasoning. Where will you go after A? I will go to B and C. After D, E and F, I will die at point G. The end.

But if you view future as endless, then you must view past as well. I dont see why it cant go endlessly. Before my birth I literally was the attraction of my parents, literally were my parents, and everyone else and everything else. Forever.
Tamminen
Posts: 1347
Joined: April 19th, 2016, 2:53 pm

Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by Tamminen »

Atla wrote: May 6th, 2019, 12:09 pm What you say would require that a "you" exists distinct from the rest of the world and from "me", which is of course nonsense.
In this kind of conversation language often goes on a holiday and we mean different things by the same words.
Tamminen
Posts: 1347
Joined: April 19th, 2016, 2:53 pm

Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by Tamminen »

Atla wrote: May 6th, 2019, 12:05 pm You talk about the logic of linear time with a direction from past towards future, but I'm talking about another logic that's actually directionless.
The catch with "loop time" or "circular time" is that it predicts that the expansion of our observable universe will necessarily reverse eventually. (Which isn't that implausible I think, seeing how the expansion rate already changed at least 3-4 times in the past, so such an event will probably happen again.)
These paragraphs show that you talk about physical time. I speak about subjective time, which is the original meaning of time. Subjective time is a process where the present experience changes to a past experience and a new present experience appears from the future. It cannot change direction in its concrete process of advancing, only in thinking, abstracted from the real happening. Physical time is an example of abstracted time.
Tamminen
Posts: 1347
Joined: April 19th, 2016, 2:53 pm

Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by Tamminen »

Let us suppose there is an absolute point of view to the world, and from this point of view time is a closed loop, whatever that means. Now I am part of this loop, and in the middle of subjective time. What I wrote in my replies to ubojico and Atla above applies here, which of course destroys the loop as a structure of subjective time. To sum up, subjective time is a linear, never-ending one-way street with a starting point somewhere in the past.
User avatar
ubojico
New Trial Member
Posts: 9
Joined: April 11th, 2019, 10:54 am

Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by ubojico »

Tamminen wrote: May 6th, 2019, 3:56 pm Let us suppose there is an absolute point of view to the world, and from this point of view time is a closed loop, whatever that means. Now I am part of this loop, and in the middle of subjective time. What I wrote in my replies to @ubojico and @Atla above applies here, which of course destroys the loop as a structure of subjective time. To sum up, subjective time is a linear, never-ending one-way street with a starting point somewhere in the past.

But as soon as I die, I will wake up as someone else, effectively continuing my subjective time. In the same sense, my subjective time started at a point in time infinite in the past for all intents and purposes, as the first consciousness.
User avatar
Felix
Posts: 3117
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by Felix »

Atla: "an awkward way to put it would be that there is only one finite "round", only one finite "cycle" with no beginning or end."

Anything finite by definition has a beginning, including your "closed loop," so your statement is illogical.

Atla: "What you say would require that a "you" exists distinct from the rest of the world and from "me", which is of course nonsense."

Well, the illusion of separate I's is certainly persuasive enough to convince anyone who has not experienced cosmic consciousness, which is not many, that we are are distinct subjects - those troublesome physical bodies tend to reinforce that idea by continually bringing us back to temporal reality. And as they say in Zen, after enlightenment one is still compelled to "chop wood and carry water," if one wishes to retain one's current subjective bias, i.e., avoid physical death.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Tamminen
Posts: 1347
Joined: April 19th, 2016, 2:53 pm

Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by Tamminen »

Felix wrote: May 6th, 2019, 5:47 pm ...after enlightenment one is still compelled to "chop wood and carry water"
What if we just say that our separateness and unity are equally real?
User avatar
Felix
Posts: 3117
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by Felix »

"What if we just say that our separateness and unity are equally real?"

I wish that was so. Unfortunately separateness is much more real than unity to most people - thus war, inequality, environmental degradation, ad nauseum.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by Atla »

Felix wrote: May 6th, 2019, 5:47 pm Anything finite by definition has a beginning, including your "closed loop," so your statement is illogical.
?
Take a circle for example, and you're a 1-dimensional being on the circle.
The circle has a finite size, but where is the beginning on it?
What I'm talking is more or less the same thing, just in 4 dimensions.
True philosophy points to the Moon
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by Atla »

Tamminen wrote: May 6th, 2019, 2:44 pm These paragraphs show that you talk about physical time. I speak about subjective time, which is the original meaning of time. Subjective time is a process where the present experience changes to a past experience and a new present experience appears from the future. It cannot change direction in its concrete process of advancing, only in thinking, abstracted from the real happening. Physical time is an example of abstracted time.
I think subjective time is just the sensation that time flows in one direction, from past towards the future. (A nice illusion.)

You added the assumption that it therefore had a start in the past. But you can tell this how? (Plus the idea of a beginning brings up logical problems.)

An alternative assumption is that there never was a start because time goes in circle, it "flows in one direction" and eventually returns into itself.
True philosophy points to the Moon
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by Atla »

Atla wrote: May 7th, 2019, 1:41 pm
Felix wrote: May 6th, 2019, 5:47 pm Anything finite by definition has a beginning, including your "closed loop," so your statement is illogical.
?
Take a circle for example, and you're a 1-dimensional being on the circle.
The circle has a finite size, but where is the beginning on it?
What I'm talking is more or less the same thing, just in 4 dimensions.
Oh yeah important little detail, here I was talking about an 1-dimensional circle. It can't really be visualized I think.
True philosophy points to the Moon
Tamminen
Posts: 1347
Joined: April 19th, 2016, 2:53 pm

Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by Tamminen »

Atla wrote: May 7th, 2019, 1:54 pm I think subjective time is just the sensation that time flows in one direction, from past towards the future.
A sensation is the content of the present in subjective time. Tomorrow always comes after today, even if the content of tomorrow were the same as the content of today. This is the internal structure of subjective time, its logic. Going backwards in subjective time is a contradiction in terms. The situation becomes a bit more complicated when we speak of physical time, time measured with clocks, and the problems with spacetime, when time and space get intertwined, especially in General Relativity.
You added the assumption that it therefore had a start in the past. But you can tell this how? (Plus the idea of a beginning brings up logical problems.)
I tried to explain this in my reply to ubojico above. The logic of subjective past is such that there cannot be a real event in the infinite past, and even if there were, there would be no road from that event to where I am now. I think you can see this if you think about it carefully. I admit that also the idea of finite past is somewhat strange and counterintuitive, but there is no logical contradiction in it. Think about the moment when you wake up in the morning and have your first conscious experience after deep sleep, and replace the deep sleep with nothingness. Would you tell me where the logical problems are, I am very interested.
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by Atla »

Tamminen wrote: May 7th, 2019, 2:57 pm
Atla wrote: May 7th, 2019, 1:54 pm I think subjective time is just the sensation that time flows in one direction, from past towards the future.
A sensation is the content of the present in subjective time. Tomorrow always comes after today, even if the content of tomorrow were the same as the content of today. This is the internal structure of subjective time, its logic. Going backwards in subjective time is a contradiction in terms. The situation becomes a bit more complicated when we speak of physical time, time measured with clocks, and the problems with spacetime, when time and space get intertwined, especially in General Relativity.
You added the assumption that it therefore had a start in the past. But you can tell this how? (Plus the idea of a beginning brings up logical problems.)
I tried to explain this in my reply to @ubojico above. The logic of subjective past is such that there cannot be a real event in the infinite past, and even if there were, there would be no road from that event to where I am now. I think you can see this if you think about it carefully. I admit that also the idea of finite past is somewhat strange and counterintuitive, but there is no logical contradiction in it. Think about the moment when you wake up in the morning and have your first conscious experience after deep sleep, and replace the deep sleep with nothingness. Would you tell me where the logical problems are, I am very interested.
Ok I don't understand what you mean. If by subjective time we really only mean the illusion of the passage of time, then nothing follows from it since it's just an illusion. It has no "actual" internal structure or logic.
True philosophy points to the Moon
Post Reply

Return to “Epistemology and Metaphysics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021