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Objective vs Subjective Truth

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GE Morton
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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

Post by GE Morton » May 17th, 2019, 9:43 am

Sculptor1 wrote:
May 16th, 2019, 4:17 pm
Todd wrote:
March 31st, 2019, 8:12 pm
I'm writing a blog post exploring whether the idea of objective truth (defined below) is a valid and useful concept.
It would be most useful to recognize that all truth is bound to the subject. In as much as all truthful statements have to be recognized and identified by a human subject.
All claims that such truths have any kind of objective quality requires certain things to be agreed upon by those that apprehend the statements. |Thus any claims made must also be examined in reference to agreed parameters. Such parameters cannot avoid cultural and historical definition and are therefore relative to the those factors.

Here's an example:
10 people suck on a lemon. Some say that the lemon is sour, some that it is sweeter than normal, others say it is typically sour of lemons generally.
A scientist comes along hoping to determine the objective truth of the degree of sourness of the lemon. After a few moments, and with the help of a machine, the scientist declares the lemon to have a sourness factor of 7.56.
The 10 people rely on their experience of lemons, but that makes their results subjective. The question is whether or not the machine is any better. It uses data which has been gathered on lemons, so the claim is that the result is better and more objective than the humans. But surely the data itself is machine subjective and relies on the arbitrary experimental selection of the lemons it has been 'fed'.
You're confusing objective/subjective with absolute/relative. While the only "absolute" truths are tautologies, an objective truth is one for which the truth conditions for the proposition asserting it are public, i.e., verifiable by any suitably situated observer. A subjective truth is one whose truth conditions are private, accessible only to the speaker.

"This lemon is sour" is an objective proposition. It means the juice of the lemon has a high acid content. That fact is verifiable by anyone who either tastes or analyzes the juice.

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Consul
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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

Post by Consul » May 17th, 2019, 12:57 pm

GE Morton wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 9:43 am
You're confusing objective/subjective with absolute/relative. While the only "absolute" truths are tautologies, an objective truth is one for which the truth conditions for the proposition asserting it are public, i.e., verifiable by any suitably situated observer. A subjective truth is one whose truth conditions are private, accessible only to the speaker.
An introspective truth about a private experience is an epistemically objective truth about something ontically subjective.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars

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Sculptor1
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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

Post by Sculptor1 » May 18th, 2019, 1:44 pm

GE Morton wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 9:43 am
Sculptor1 wrote:
May 16th, 2019, 4:17 pm


It would be most useful to recognize that all truth is bound to the subject. In as much as all truthful statements have to be recognized and identified by a human subject.
All claims that such truths have any kind of objective quality requires certain things to be agreed upon by those that apprehend the statements. |Thus any claims made must also be examined in reference to agreed parameters. Such parameters cannot avoid cultural and historical definition and are therefore relative to the those factors.

Here's an example:
10 people suck on a lemon. Some say that the lemon is sour, some that it is sweeter than normal, others say it is typically sour of lemons generally.
A scientist comes along hoping to determine the objective truth of the degree of sourness of the lemon. After a few moments, and with the help of a machine, the scientist declares the lemon to have a sourness factor of 7.56.
The 10 people rely on their experience of lemons, but that makes their results subjective. The question is whether or not the machine is any better. It uses data which has been gathered on lemons, so the claim is that the result is better and more objective than the humans. But surely the data itself is machine subjective and relies on the arbitrary experimental selection of the lemons it has been 'fed'.
You're confusing objective/subjective with absolute/relative. While the only "absolute" truths are tautologies, an objective truth is one for which the truth conditions for the proposition asserting it are public, i.e., verifiable by any suitably situated observer. A subjective truth is one whose truth conditions are private, accessible only to the speaker.

"This lemon is sour" is an objective proposition.
And yet it can be false
...It means the juice of the lemon has a high acid content.
Nope... "high" is a value judgment
That fact is verifiable by anyone who either tastes or analyzes the juice.
Not at all. Who is "anyone"?

GE Morton
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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

Post by GE Morton » May 18th, 2019, 10:49 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 1:44 pm
"This lemon is sour" is an objective proposition.
And yet it can be false
Of course. An objective proposition may be either true or false. E.g., "San Francisco is the capital of the US" is objectively false.
...It means the juice of the lemon has a high acid content.
Nope... "high" is a value judgment
No. it isn't. It means the acid content is high relative to other foods, or perhaps high relative to other lemons. No values are involved.
That fact is verifiable by anyone who either tastes or analyzes the juice.
Not at all. Who is "anyone"?
The answer is given in the statement.

GE Morton
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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

Post by GE Morton » May 18th, 2019, 10:53 pm

Consul wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 12:57 pm
GE Morton wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 9:43 am
You're confusing objective/subjective with absolute/relative. While the only "absolute" truths are tautologies, an objective truth is one for which the truth conditions for the proposition asserting it are public, i.e., verifiable by any suitably situated observer. A subjective truth is one whose truth conditions are private, accessible only to the speaker.
An introspective truth about a private experience is an epistemically objective truth about something ontically subjective.
We've covered this. Searle's "epistemically/ontically" analysis is vacuous.

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Consul
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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

Post by Consul » May 18th, 2019, 11:24 pm

GE Morton wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 10:53 pm
We've covered this. Searle's "epistemically/ontically" analysis is vacuous.
No, it's not.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars

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Sculptor1
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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

Post by Sculptor1 » May 19th, 2019, 5:34 am

GE Morton wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 10:49 pm
Sculptor1 wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 1:44 pm

And yet it can be false
Of course. An objective proposition may be either true or false. E.g., "San Francisco is the capital of the US" is objectively false.
Nope... "high" is a value judgment
No. it isn't. It means the acid content is high relative to other foods, or perhaps high relative to other lemons. No values are involved.
Not at all. Who is "anyone"?
The answer is given in the statement.
HIGH is a value judgment.
WHo is anyone?

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Sculptor1
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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

Post by Sculptor1 » May 19th, 2019, 5:47 am

GE Morton wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 10:49 pm

No. it isn't. It means the acid content is high relative to other foods, or perhaps high relative to other lemons. No values are involved.

LOL.
You mean an objective statement is relative?

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Present awareness
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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

Post by Present awareness » May 19th, 2019, 1:56 pm

Todd wrote:
March 31st, 2019, 8:12 pm
I'm writing a blog post exploring whether the idea of objective truth (defined below) is a valid and useful concept.

What do you think? I believe objective truth to be important and useful, but I'm having a hard time explaining why. What are the philosophical arguments for and against this idea?

Objective Truth defined: no matter what we believe to be the case, some things will always be true, and other things will always be false. Our beliefs, whatever they are, have no bearing on the facts of the world around us. That which is true is always true — even if we stop believing it and even if we stop existing at all.

It seems an implied debate about objective vs. subjective truth underlies much of public discourse in political and cultural areas. Some advocate subjectivism - arguing for subjective truth and criticize the validity of things like reason, science, logic, etc. These arguments seem to align with Postmodern Philosophy.

Others subscribe to a more Modern world view which upholds the importance of objective truth, science, etc and the inherent logic and predictability in the world around us.
It has been estimated that objectively, the Earth rotates roughly 1000 miles an hour at the equator, but if we stand there, we do not subjectively feel this rotation. Subjectively, the Sun moves across the sky but objectively it is the Earth that is moving. Objectively, the Earth is a globe but subjectively it looks flat. What we often experience subjectively does not always correlate with what is actually happening. Even though these things have been estimated to be going on for billions of years, it will not continue forever. The Sun will die and in it’s death, will ingulf the Earth, reducing Earth to a torched lifeless rock.
The conclusion is the nothing is permanent and perhaps that is the only real objective truth!
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.

GE Morton
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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

Post by GE Morton » May 21st, 2019, 10:32 am

Sculptor1 wrote:
May 19th, 2019, 5:47 am

LOL.
You mean an objective statement is relative?
It can be, yes. The absolute/relative dichotomy is is unrelated to the subjective/objective dichotomy. "George is six feet tall" and "George is taller than John" are both objective.

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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

Post by Arjen » May 23rd, 2019, 1:59 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
May 16th, 2019, 4:17 pm
It would be most useful to recognize that all truth is bound to the subject. In as much as all truthful statements have to be recognized and identified by a human subject.
That is exactly the point.

During the period known as 'enlightenment' rationalism was set out agai st empiricism. Empiricism being information derived by observation. Rationalism being information derived by tje ratio.

I humbly submit that a correct thought is derived from 2 premisses. One subjective concerning the object being an observation. One objective concerning universal categories relating to the observed object. So, the ratio is neccessarily objective.

By properly analysing and discussing things, we can arrive at intersubjective truths, because the ratio is the same in every being. Some suggest that there is only 1 ratio, within which everything exists (Christianity in Greek tradition for example) or that is quantified into all things (Christianity in Latin tradition for example).

:)

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Sculptor1
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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

Post by Sculptor1 » May 23rd, 2019, 5:25 pm

GE Morton wrote:
May 21st, 2019, 10:32 am
Sculptor1 wrote:
May 19th, 2019, 5:47 am

LOL.
You mean an objective statement is relative?
It can be, yes. The absolute/relative dichotomy is is unrelated to the subjective/objective dichotomy. "George is six feet tall" and "George is taller than John" are both objective.
Avoid hyperbole. It is NOT unrelated. If it were unrelated there would be no such thing as a relative objective statement.
BTW "George is taller than John" is not relative. It is comparative.

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Sculptor1
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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

Post by Sculptor1 » May 23rd, 2019, 5:28 pm

Arjen wrote:
May 23rd, 2019, 1:59 pm
Sculptor1 wrote:
May 16th, 2019, 4:17 pm
It would be most useful to recognize that all truth is bound to the subject. In as much as all truthful statements have to be recognized and identified by a human subject.
That is exactly the point.

During the period known as 'enlightenment' rationalism was set out agai st empiricism. Empiricism being information derived by observation. Rationalism being information derived by tje ratio.

I humbly submit that a correct thought is derived from 2 premisses. One subjective concerning the object being an observation. One objective concerning universal categories relating to the observed object. So, the ratio is neccessarily objective.

By properly analysing and discussing things, we can arrive at intersubjective truths, because the ratio is the same in every being. Some suggest that there is only 1 ratio, within which everything exists (Christianity in Greek tradition for example) or that is quantified into all things (Christianity in Latin tradition for example).

:)
What people claim for "objectivity" often outweighs the truth that such statements are limited to "intersubjectivity". Sadly when people claim objectivity they are usually trying to assert an absolute and universal fact, disinterested and devoid of subject - this is absurd.

Something as banal as "murder is wrong" is not devoid of subject or relationship. At best it is a tautology. But cannot be absolute or universal.

GE Morton
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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

Post by GE Morton » May 23rd, 2019, 6:27 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
May 23rd, 2019, 5:25 pm
GE Morton wrote:
May 21st, 2019, 10:32 am


It can be, yes. The absolute/relative dichotomy is is unrelated to the subjective/objective dichotomy. "George is six feet tall" and "George is taller than John" are both objective.
Avoid hyperbole. It is NOT unrelated. If it were unrelated there would be no such thing as a relative objective statement.
Er, no. Two adjectives need not denote related properties in order for both to apply to some subject. The point was that "objective" does not mean, or imply, "absolute," though it is often used as though it does.

GE Morton
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Re: Objective vs Subjective Truth

Post by GE Morton » May 23rd, 2019, 6:31 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
May 23rd, 2019, 5:28 pm

Something as banal as "murder is wrong" is not devoid of subject or relationship. At best it is a tautology. But cannot be absolute or universal.
If it is a tautology (which it is) it is necessarily absolute. Tautologies are the only propositions absolutely true.

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