Should the UK leave the European Union?

Have philosophical discussions about politics, law, and government.
Featured Article: Definition of Freedom - What Freedom Means to Me
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 »

Incidentally, this simple calculation that the biggest, strongest side (economically and militarily) wins does seem, as far as I can tell, to have worked in the particular case of the US versus Turkey, in which Trump declared, in characteristically straightforward style, that Turkey would either do as he says or face total economic destruction at the hands of his administration.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 »

OK, so the votes are in from the European elections. In the UK, it seems that the result simply confirms what we've known since 2016: that the UK electorate is split down the middle on the issue of Brexit. Of those who bother to vote at all, roughly half favour Brexit and half favour Remain. That number sometimes tips slightly one way or the other.

In this European election it happened to tip slightly in favour of Remain. About 35% voted for the unequivocally Brexit voting parties and only very slightly more voted for the unequivocally Remain voting parties: the mirror image of the referendum in 2016. This supports the polling evidence of the last few years.

So the new Prime Minister is going to have just as much fun as Theresa May did.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Sculptor1 »

It is amusing but sad to see that both the Tories and Labour are being punished for being too Remain, and too Leave.
Until this fiasco is over the fringe parties are going to do very well by promising everything and delivering nothing.
What is particularly sad is that the working class have been engineered to believe that all their ill are due to immigrants.
This is a trope that the media and the right wing parties (including the LibDems and Tories) have failed to challenge since it hurts Corbyn's growing Labour movement more than it hurts any other party.
The whirlwind that is going to be reaped now is the breakup of reason and sanity and the emergence of fascism.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Sculptor1 »

aveenire wrote: May 21st, 2019, 10:07 pm others can take precedence. In the UK, regional identifies can, in my experience, often take precedence. Especially for people from Yorkshire!
The Brexit party in Yorkshire and Humber polled more votes that Labour and LibDem combined.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Steve3007 wrote: May 27th, 2019, 5:07 am
In this European election it happened to tip slightly in favour of Remain.
I do not think so, given the poor turnout. If people thought remain was a possibility then they would have come out to vote.
People are pissed off with hearing the word Brexit and realize that the only way to end it is to get the hell out.
Image a world where we stayed in?
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 »

Sculptor1 wrote:The whirlwind that is going to be reaped now is the breakup of reason and sanity and the emergence of fascism.
I'm not sure about the accuracy of the parallels with the rise of Fascism, tempting as they are, but I certainly agree that whatever reason and sanity there was in British politics has gradually vanished over the last 3 years. I think the rise of Boris to Prime Minister will greatly accelerate this process.

The creation, in a relatively short space of term, of these new words "Brexiter" and "Remainer" to demonise our perceived enemies is particularly interesting. It's now become routine in Newspapers/sites like the Express and Telegraph to find "Remainer plots" under every stone. And this clearly works. People are taken in by it.

It was also interesting to see that in a recent YouGov poll a significant majority of people who are traditionally Conservative voters now see achieving Brexit at any cost as more important than almost anything else. If it means the complete destruction of the Conservative Party (or "The Conservative and Unionist Party" to give it its full name) it is apparently deemed by most members of that party to be worth it. If it means the breakup of the UK (the union), with both Northern Ireland and Scotland becoming independent, it is still deemed worth it, apparently.

The only price they're not willing to pay would be if it meant Corbyn became Prime Minister.

Interesting times. It should be a memorable Halloween.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Steve3007 wrote: June 26th, 2019, 8:02 am
Sculptor1 wrote:The whirlwind that is going to be reaped now is the breakup of reason and sanity and the emergence of fascism.
I'm not sure about the accuracy of the parallels with the rise of Fascism, tempting as they are, but I certainly agree that whatever reason and sanity there was in British politics has gradually vanished over the last 3 years. I think the rise of Boris to Prime Minister will greatly accelerate this process.

The creation, in a relatively short space of term, of these new words "Brexiter" and "Remainer" to demonise our perceived enemies is particularly interesting. It's now become routine in Newspapers/sites like the Express and Telegraph to find "Remainer plots" under every stone. And this clearly works. People are taken in by it.

It was also interesting to see that in a recent YouGov poll a significant majority of people who are traditionally Conservative voters now see achieving Brexit at any cost as more important than almost anything else. If it means the complete destruction of the Conservative Party (or "The Conservative and Unionist Party" to give it its full name) it is apparently deemed by most members of that party to be worth it. If it means the breakup of the UK (the union), with both Northern Ireland and Scotland becoming independent, it is still deemed worth it, apparently.

The only price they're not willing to pay would be if it meant Corbyn became Prime Minister.

Interesting times. It should be a memorable Halloween.
The wankers have borrowed more and the country is in more debt than it was 10 years ago. Yet for political expediency they show the lie of austerity and are promising spending 15bn of defence, 11bn for tax reduction, 10bn foe NO reductions, more for a reduction in corporate tax.
The poor shall not benefit from these cuts to tax. Things for them will continue to get worse
In that time we have the advent of food banks and more inequality. This is working poverty to degrees not seen since the 1930s. Meanwhile the number of billionaires has TRIPLED. Most of the UK's financial resources are held off-shore.

We are being screwed. The only thing that happened in the so-called financial crash was the degree to which the Tories can justify screwing the public more.
More tax evasion, more tax avoidance, more hidden cash. More extremes of wealth, more people going hungry.

The elephant in the room at the moment is the idea that changing the Tory leader is going to make any difference to the Brexit process. They simply do not have the arithmetic in Parliament, and electing Boris or (c)unt is not going to alter that.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 »

It's interesting to see that it now seems more and more likely that Prime Minister Boris Johnson will suspend ("prorogue") Parliament in order to force through a no-deal Brexit against the will of the majority of MPs. It's interesting because it's the most stark and direct example yet of the seemingly irreconcilable conflict between direct democracy (the referendum) and representative democracy (a Parliament of MPs who we have, in theory at least, elected in order that they might use their judgement, and not just robotically enact our fleeting whims, for the good of the country.)

It shows more and more that, whatever mistakes Prime Minister Theresa May made (and she made some whoppers, the biggest of which was calling an election in 2017), she did have an essentially impossible task. She had the task of simultaneously doing two mutually contradictory things both of which she was told she must do in the name of democracy.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Belindi »

Yes, but as Rory Stewart said Parliament is not a building it's an assembly and dissenters can and will assemble parliament .
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 »

Belindi wrote:Yes, but as Rory Stewart said Parliament is not a building it's an assembly and dissenters can and will assemble parliament .
Yes, he suggested that Parliament could assemble in the church across the road. If that happened it would be a fascinating development and a huge event in the history of our politics.

Of all the candidates for the Tory leadership Rory Stewart was always my favourite. He always seemed relatively sane and un-self-serving. I'm currently reading his book about his adventures trekking across Afghanistan. It's an interesting read. He seems like the kind of politician who uses his experiences and the lessons of history to actually think properly and seriously about the problems to be solved in geopolitics. The antithesis of Boris Johnson.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Belindi »

Rory Stewart is the thinking man's Tory. But the Tory ethos is self serving . Maybe Rory Stewart will defect to Labour and tidy it up.
User avatar
Rederic
Posts: 589
Joined: May 30th, 2012, 8:26 am
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell
Location: South coast of England

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Rederic »

I think Rory Stewart is probably the best the Tory party has. He has depth and character with a sharp mind. But his voting record in Parliament leaves a lot to be desired.
Religion is at its best when it makes us ask hard questions of ourselves.
It is at its worst when it deludes us into thinking we have all the answers for everybody else.
Archibald Macleish.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Rederic wrote: June 29th, 2019, 8:20 am I think Rory Stewart is probably the best the Tory party has. He has depth and character with a sharp mind. But his voting record in Parliament leaves a lot to be desired.
The best thing about him is that he was once in the Labour party, but sadly he has gone over to the dark side.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 »

Belindi wrote:Rory Stewart is the thinking man's Tory. But the Tory ethos is self serving . Maybe Rory Stewart will defect to Labour and tidy it up.
Right now it seems like people are defecting from all over the place, or just opting out. Brexit supporting Labour MP Kate Hoey seems to be one of the latest. Precipitated by Brexit, the structure of British party politics seems to be more in flux now than it has since the first Labour government, and the start of the dominance of the two party system of Labour and the Tories, nearly a hundred years ago. I suppose, one way or another, the whole Brexit fiasco will eventually end in some way at some point. I wonder if, when that happens, the new system in which everybody is forcibly defined as a Brexiter or a Remainer will collapse back to the old Right versus Left system. And I wonder if the United Kingdom will survive the process. If I were Scottish, as a result of Brexit, I'd be strongly in favour of Scottish independence now. That wasn't true a few years ago.
User avatar
Mark1955
Posts: 739
Joined: July 21st, 2015, 4:02 am
Favorite Philosopher: David Hume
Location: Nottingham, England.

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Mark1955 »

Steve3007 wrote: July 9th, 2019, 9:30 amPrecipitated by Brexit, the structure of British party politics seems to be more in flux now than it has since the first Labour government, and the start of the dominance of the two party system of Labour and the Tories, nearly a hundred years ago. I suppose, one way or another, the whole Brexit fiasco will eventually end in some way at some point. I wonder if, when that happens, the new system in which everybody is forcibly defined as a Brexiter or a Remainer will collapse back to the old Right versus Left system. And I wonder if the United Kingdom will survive the process. If I were Scottish, as a result of Brexit, I'd be strongly in favour of Scottish independence now. That wasn't true a few years ago.
I strongly suspect we will go back to Labour v Tory as before. If “it’s the economy stupid” then this is, and always will be, the basic division in politics; tax and spend more or not. The problem of 'the EU or not' is unique in that all parties that matter are divided on the issue.

Personally if leave means we also loose the whinging Scots then it’s a win/win in my book. Sadly we won’t be able to get rid of the bigoted thickies in NI so easily but it might make us less inclined to tolerate them; if they want to be in the union they accept the rules of the union, no special case laws for NI.
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Politics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021