Being vegan for ethical reasons.

[Belindi]

I would rather they killed their pigs as they have done for thousands of years, rather than have their children work all hours to provide lipstick for western sows.

One name for what Sculptor has just written is 'Whataboutery'.

It an important tangent however it's a tangent.

[Kaz_1983]

But as to the legal definition of rape, it is universally illegal and this runs counter to the ethical standards of all modern societies. As it happens killing and eating pigs is not illegal and thus doesn't violate the ethical standards of large modern societies.

Slavery was legal once too..

[LuckyR]

But as to the legal definition of rape, it is universally illegal and this runs counter to the ethical standards of all modern societies. As it happens killing and eating pigs is not illegal and thus doesn't violate the ethical standards of large modern societies.

Slavery was legal once too..

Thus in the antebellum South, slavery was ethical yet often immoral.

[Alias]

Right now in Papua New Guinea where the entire economy was based on the wealth of pig keeping and gathering from the forest; today thousands of small communities have lost everything as their rainforest has been cut down to crop Palm Oil plants so that rich western women can plaster their faces with moisturizing cream and lip stick. Thousands of "natives" are now in $ poverty, where before they had no need of $$$ at all.
On paper they appear improved, having joined the money rat race, but they have lost all dignity and are poorer.
I would rather they killed their pigs as they have done for thousands of years, rather than have their children work all hours to provide lipstick for western sows.

I don't see how the profligacy of modern industrial western powers form an ethical basis for killing another species - let alone the breeding and raising of another species just to be killed. Whether those were the actual choices, or whether that's a false dichotomy, the one thing doesn't determine the rightness of the other.
Nor, for that matter, does the current legal finagling of the definition of rape an ethical basis for killing another species.

Lucky R -- True, one can suppose that this or that cultural practice is just like rape, or practically rape or might as well be called rape, which is another conversation.

It would have been another conversation, had you not brought it into this one. The forcing of sexual acts on an unwilling other person is rape. That is what it actually is - regardless of what it's dressed up as under a law. Legalizing a bad thing does not make it less bad.

[Kaz_1983]

"Veganism" alone is not moral at all.

What is your definition of "veganism", tho'?

[Sculptor1]

"Veganism" alone is not moral at all.

What is your definition of "veganism", tho'?

Not sure why it matters - nothing different from anyone else's version.

[Sculptor1]

I would rather they killed their pigs as they have done for thousands of years, rather than have their children work all hours to provide lipstick for western sows.

One name for what Sculptor has just written is 'Whataboutery'.

It an important tangent however it's a tangent.

No. It demonstrates the absurd Western-centric, arrogant, and self absorbed moral high ground assumed which ignores an entire world of human practice that living in balance with nature has not need of veganism, or any such unnatural contrivances; yet would impose such practices on those the west continues to exploit and destroy.

[Alias]

No. It demonstrates the absurd Western-centric, arrogant, and self absorbed moral high ground assumed which ignores an entire world of human practice that living in balance with nature has not need of veganism,

Nobody is living in balance with nature, or anything near it. And. yes, it's all that arrogant etc. western capitalism which has driven most of the imbalance. It is the controllers of that western etc. who unbalanced everybody's relationship to nature, and it's the western etc.'s who consume most of the horribly produced meat. Nobody's browbeating Borneans to stop eating pork.
But the same western etceteras are the people who have most choice in their diet, and most control over how their food is procured, and the most responsibility for unethical practices in food production - not only in their own nations, but world-wide.
You like what you like, want what you want - even though you have options.
Don't obfuscate that by referncing poor downtrodden third-world people who have nothing to do with your choices.

[LuckyR]

Lucky R -- True, one can suppose that this or that cultural practice is just like rape, or practically rape or might as well be called rape, which is another conversation.

It would have been another conversation, had you not brought it into this one. The forcing of sexual acts on an unwilling other person is rape. That is what it actually is - regardless of what it's dressed up as under a law. Legalizing a bad thing does not make it less bad.

I wasn't discussing "bad" (vs good), I was discussing ethical and moral. Several bad things are ethical.

[Kaz_1983]

What is your definition of "veganism", tho'?

Not sure why it matters - nothing different from anyone else's version.

I'm sorry but the definition of the words we use is very important and is often the source of confusion. It matters more than you think. Anyways like I said, what is your definition of veganism?

[Kaz_1983]

IMHO the definition of veganism is to avoid using animal products, as far as is possible and practicable.. if you live in a first world country, you should seriously consider eating plant based but if you live in the middle of Africa etc etc and being vegan is not practical or possible, then don't.

(eating plant based = a vegan diet)

Any black or white, situation can be created - to support one thing over the other. It's like if I ask - if you buy factory farmed meat over eating a plant-based whole foods diet (grown locally not flown in from Kenya), is that immoral?

A vegan that everyday eats green beans that have been crown in Kenya and flown by aeroplane to the UK is immoral compared with a person that eats beef soup which is made from the by products of the meat industry.

Ever heard of the black and white fallacy? Hint hint, it has to do with asking stupid questions.. here you go:

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white

[Belindi]

Kaz wrote:

IMHO the definition of veganism is to avoid using animal products, as far as is possible and practicable.. if you live in a first world country, you should seriously consider eating plant based but if you live in the middle of Africa etc etc and being vegan is not practical or possible, then don't.

I agree.

Frugality is sexy but it takes time for people to adapt. Therefore we say "Just have one meat-free day per week". Or " Omit the most cruel foods" (Foie gras is the most cruel).
Or "Eat a small amount of good local meat instead of a lot of bad meat".

Letting children know where their food comes from is not on all the curriculums yet but it will be.

[Sculptor1]

No. It demonstrates the absurd Western-centric, arrogant, and self absorbed moral high ground assumed which ignores an entire world of human practice that living in balance with nature has not need of veganism,

Nobody is living in balance with nature, or anything near it. And. yes, it's all that arrogant etc. western capitalism which has driven most of the imbalance.

The people of PNQ have been living with no change to the environment for 30,000 years. And until the white man arrived on the scene Australian aborigines, had minimal impact for 40,000 years.

[Sy Borg]

Sculptor1, Australian Aboriginals were responsible for megafauna extinctions. https://phys.org/news/2017-01-humans-cl ... fauna.html

[Kaz_1983]

Frugality is sexy but it takes time for people to adapt. Therefore we say "Just have one meat-free day per week". Or " Omit the most cruel foods" (Foie gras is the most cruel).

Obviously I'd prefer people go vegan/plant based rather than just do "meat free Mondays" - I can't help that but I do realise that it isn't practical, nor possible in most cases.

Switching to plant based milk, trying some vegan products, buy beans rather than pork next time etc etc, that's both practical and possible. People should do that.

Letting children know where their food comes from is not on all the curriculums yet but it will be.

I let my son eat meat if he wants, he's got $5 a week to spend on meat. BUT, I make sure that he knows what he's eating, you that "...a pig was killed for that peice of pork"

I'm gonna make sure he watches some slaughter house footage in a few years.