Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Discuss morality and ethics in this message board.
Featured Article: Philosophical Analysis of Abortion, The Right to Life, and Murder
Post Reply
Kaz_1983
Posts: 432
Joined: May 26th, 2019, 6:52 am

Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Kaz_1983 »

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... html%3famp
"this could also be traumatising for children getting to know the animals and then knowing they are going to die."
And what's the problem with that? Nothing IMO, anyways what do people think about that?
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by LuckyR »

Kaz_1983 wrote: September 8th, 2019, 6:08 pm
Belindi wrote: September 8th, 2019, 11:42 am Frugality is sexy but it takes time for people to adapt. Therefore we say "Just have one meat-free day per week". Or " Omit the most cruel foods" (Foie gras is the most cruel).
Obviously I'd prefer people go vegan/plant based rather than just do "meat free Mondays" - I can't help that but I do realise that it isn't practical, nor possible in most cases.

Switching to plant based milk, trying some vegan products, buy beans rather than pork next time etc etc, that's both practical and possible. People should do that.
Letting children know where their food comes from is not on all the curriculums yet but it will be.
I let my son eat meat if he wants, he's got $5 a week to spend on meat. BUT, I make sure that he knows what he's eating, you that "...a pig was killed for that peice of pork"

I'm gonna make sure he watches some slaughter house footage in a few years.
You're underestimating the power of small shifts when multiplied by hundreds of millions of consumers. If vegetarians go vegan, no redmeat people go non dairy, regular folks lower their beef consumption and use non dairy creamer, the multiplicative effect can be substantial.
"As usual... it depends."
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Belindi »

Lucky, that's reasonable optimism :)
Alias
Posts: 3119
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Alias »

LuckyR wrote: September 8th, 2019, 2:36 am I wasn't discussing "bad" (vs good), I was discussing ethical and moral. Several bad things are ethical.
But not rape - at least, not illegal rape. I wonder what your criteria are for "ethical".
Alias
Posts: 3119
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Alias »

Sculptor1 wrote: September 8th, 2019, 5:07 pm The people of PNQ have been living with no change to the environment for 30,000 years. And until the white man arrived on the scene Australian aborigines, had minimal impact for 40,000 years.
So was everyone else, except for the chronic overhunting, until civilization put an end to it.
Now, nobody is.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by LuckyR »

Belindi wrote: September 9th, 2019, 6:31 am Lucky, that's reasonable optimism :)
As it turns out, we don't need to get to zero demand to impact the industry. Already the 25% decrease in milk consumption in the US has forced marginal players out of the industry. Another 10% would likely be the tipping point towards irreversible decline.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by LuckyR »

Alias wrote: September 9th, 2019, 11:54 pm
LuckyR wrote: September 8th, 2019, 2:36 am I wasn't discussing "bad" (vs good), I was discussing ethical and moral. Several bad things are ethical.
But not rape - at least, not illegal rape. I wonder what your criteria are for "ethical".
Very true. Rape (as mentioned before) is universally unethical, meaning it violates the ethical standard of all modern societies.

OTOH, slavery in the antebellum South, was wrong, yet didn't violate the ethical standard of that society.
"As usual... it depends."
Kaz_1983
Posts: 432
Joined: May 26th, 2019, 6:52 am

Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Kaz_1983 »

LuckyR wrote: September 10th, 2019, 2:55 am
Belindi wrote: September 9th, 2019, 6:31 am Lucky, that's reasonable optimism :)
As it turns out, we don't need to get to zero demand to impact the industry. Already the 25% decrease in milk consumption in the US has forced marginal players out of the industry. Another 10% would likely be the tipping point towards irreversible decline.
A tipping point is just when small change becomes significant enough to cause a larger, more important change. Give it a few generations - the babies born today, will see the transformation from meat and dairy being common-place, to when the large majority is vegan.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Sculptor1 »

Alias wrote: September 9th, 2019, 11:57 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: September 8th, 2019, 5:07 pm The people of PNQ have been living with no change to the environment for 30,000 years. And until the white man arrived on the scene Australian aborigines, had minimal impact for 40,000 years.
So was everyone else, except for the chronic overhunting, until civilization put an end to it.
Now, nobody is.
An "IS" is not an "Ought".
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by LuckyR »

Kaz_1983 wrote: September 10th, 2019, 4:48 am
LuckyR wrote: September 10th, 2019, 2:55 am

As it turns out, we don't need to get to zero demand to impact the industry. Already the 25% decrease in milk consumption in the US has forced marginal players out of the industry. Another 10% would likely be the tipping point towards irreversible decline.
A tipping point is just when small change becomes significant enough to cause a larger, more important change. Give it a few generations - the babies born today, will see the transformation from meat and dairy being common-place, to when the large majority is vegan.
Thanks for the definition. I agree that continuing the slow steady decline is going to make the inevitable happen... eventually. I was describing the point where (by my estimation) a tiny further change likely will bring about an economic shift of huge proportions, IOW a classic tipping point.
"As usual... it depends."
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Belindi »

Kaz wrote:
A tipping point is just when small change becomes significant enough to cause a larger, more important change. Give it a few generations - the babies born today, will see the transformation from meat and dairy being common-place, to when the large majority is vegan.
I don't offer the following as evidence from authority although it's accepted as evidence by believers. It's rather well expressed though:

And again he said, “To what shall I compare the kingdom of God? It is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, until it was all leavened.”

— Luke 13:20–21,

Liverpool
Posts: 29
Joined: July 6th, 2019, 8:30 am

Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Liverpool »

I get that people have plenty of objections to veganism but I'm sure all of us agree that not killing animals is not a good thing?

But we don't for food and to wear i.e. leather, is a good thing. It's just can alternatives that are as nutritious, as durable/good for the plant I.e. biodegradable.Right?

What if that's all those concerns are meet (technical advances over time are crazy)? IMO it would be unacceptable to REFUSE to go plant-based/vegan and deciding to eat meat would be seen in the same light as smoking (in terms of the social stigma and how people judge smokers)....
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by LuckyR »

Liverpool wrote: September 29th, 2019, 7:39 pm I get that people have plenty of objections to veganism but I'm sure all of us agree that not killing animals is not a good thing?

But we don't for food and to wear i.e. leather, is a good thing. It's just can alternatives that are as nutritious, as durable/good for the plant I.e. biodegradable.Right?

What if that's all those concerns are meet (technical advances over time are crazy)? IMO it would be unacceptable to REFUSE to go plant-based/vegan and deciding to eat meat would be seen in the same light as smoking (in terms of the social stigma and how people judge smokers)....
What objections? To personally being vegan?
"As usual... it depends."
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Belindi »

Liverpool, let's leave aside for the present purpose those people who kill things for fun.
I agree there will probably be a social stigma attached to using animals as commodities. Some groups have more power to change social mores . At present the political right is gaining power . However even the political right will come to accept the necessity of not eating meat, despite some eccentric individuals' continuing to do so.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Sculptor1 »

Belindi wrote: September 30th, 2019, 4:13 am Liverpool, let's leave aside for the present purpose those people who kill things for fun.
I agree there will probably be a social stigma attached to using animals as commodities.
Historically it is the lifeblood of many cultures and remains so today even in the west's farming culture.
Some groups have more power to change social mores . At present the political right is gaining power . However even the political right will come to accept the necessity of not eating meat, despite some eccentric individuals' continuing to do so.
There is no necessity for not eating meat. Most farm land is "marginal" and incapable of growing edible plants for human consumption. Farming animals can be far more eco-friendly since it most mimics the cycles of the natural environment.

Less meat, maybe. Cereals for human rather than beef consumption obviously.

But whilst people still need to walk with their feet, leather is the most eco-friendly way to make shoes.
Post Reply

Return to “Ethics and Morality”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021