Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

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Kate
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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Kate » October 23rd, 2019, 3:59 am

I was in U.S. but now in New Zealand. It seems to me to be a little ironic that it the more secular-humanist cultures (such as in this country, Germany and Scandinavia) that have started to get a conscience about interfering with their children’s genitalia.

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LuckyR
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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by LuckyR » October 23rd, 2019, 11:08 am

Kate wrote:
October 23rd, 2019, 3:59 am
I was in U.S. but now in New Zealand. It seems to me to be a little ironic that it the more secular-humanist cultures (such as in this country, Germany and Scandinavia) that have started to get a conscience about interfering with their children’s genitalia.
So what is the status of it? Illegal, frowned upon, what?
"As usual... it depends."

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Kate
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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Kate » October 23rd, 2019, 3:45 pm

I don't know if any country has actually made it illegal although there have been moves to do so. It was as prevalent here in the middle of the last century as in the U.S. but it is no longer funded by the public health system and is discouraged by most doctors. It is now only performed by the various groups who are interested in using babies’ genitals for religious or cultural rituals.
There has been a law passed here allowing sexual discrimination to stop these practices extending to females as public opinion shifted with increased Muslim immigration. Brian D. Earp at the Yale University Department of Philosophy is an interesting commentator on these phenomena.

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LuckyR
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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by LuckyR » October 23rd, 2019, 11:25 pm

Kate wrote:
October 23rd, 2019, 3:45 pm
I don't know if any country has actually made it illegal although there have been moves to do so. It was as prevalent here in the middle of the last century as in the U.S. but it is no longer funded by the public health system and is discouraged by most doctors. It is now only performed by the various groups who are interested in using babies’ genitals for religious or cultural rituals.
There has been a law passed here allowing sexual discrimination to stop these practices extending to females as public opinion shifted with increased Muslim immigration. Brian D. Earp at the Yale University Department of Philosophy is an interesting commentator on these phenomena.
I am not seeing much daylight between your post and the current situation in the US
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Belindi » October 24th, 2019, 7:27 am

I was in U.S. but now in New Zealand. It seems to me to be a little ironic that it the more secular-humanist cultures (such as in this country, Germany and Scandinavia) that have started to get a conscience about interfering with their children’s genitalia.
It's not ironic, but is consistent with religionists' regarding intitutionalised practices as sacrosanct.Thanks Kate, for airing this topic.

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Kate
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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Kate » October 24th, 2019, 4:36 pm

LuckyR, I think the only real difference is that the circumcision rate in New Zealand is estimated to have declined to 10 to 20% and the in U.S. it is thought to still be in the region of 50 to 60%.

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Kate
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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Kate » October 24th, 2019, 4:37 pm

Belinda, thanks for support. We all know that this is a topic that almost no one is able to be completely objective about because it touches on so many aspects of our humanity.
To make just one point. Doctors know that all surgery carries some risk of serious complication and even the Mayo Clinic admits this. Regardless of whether the incidence is one in a 1000 or in a 100,000, when it goes badly wrong it totally changes, at the most intimate level, the life of the person who is maimed.
The ethics of the people who find this sort of ‘collateral damage’ acceptable in pursuit of some imagined greater good definitely do need an airing.

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by LuckyR » October 24th, 2019, 5:20 pm

Kate wrote:
October 24th, 2019, 4:36 pm
LuckyR, I think the only real difference is that the circumcision rate in New Zealand is estimated to have declined to 10 to 20% and the in U.S. it is thought to still be in the region of 50 to 60%.
Those numbers are misleading, since it varies by religion and culture. There are populations in the US (such as first generation Hispanics) with close to zero numbers and others that are higher than average. The numbers in the US are dropping also, with the current numbers well below 50% for a different reason. Namely that millennials are more concerned with consent and (counter-intuitively) concerns about "useless mutilation", this from the tongue ring and earlobe disc crowd. Go figure.
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by LuckyR » October 24th, 2019, 5:22 pm

Kate wrote:
October 24th, 2019, 4:37 pm
Belinda, thanks for support. We all know that this is a topic that almost no one is able to be completely objective about because it touches on so many aspects of our humanity.
To make just one point. Doctors know that all surgery carries some risk of serious complication and even the Mayo Clinic admits this. Regardless of whether the incidence is one in a 1000 or in a 100,000, when it goes badly wrong it totally changes, at the most intimate level, the life of the person who is maimed.
The ethics of the people who find this sort of ‘collateral damage’ acceptable in pursuit of some imagined greater good definitely do need an airing.
Just to be clear, these people are parents not practitioners.
"As usual... it depends."

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Kate
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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Kate » October 24th, 2019, 9:44 pm

But it usually involves both parents and practitioners.
(This is an emotive topic for me and my objectivity in discussing it is questionable.)
As you say above, progress is being made. And even if it is does involve a migration of the mutilation to other parts of the body that are thought to benefit from modification then at least the issue of who consents is simplified.

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by LuckyR » October 25th, 2019, 12:16 am

Kate wrote:
October 24th, 2019, 9:44 pm
But it usually involves both parents and practitioners.
(This is an emotive topic for me and my objectivity in discussing it is questionable.)
As you say above, progress is being made. And even if it is does involve a migration of the mutilation to other parts of the body that are thought to benefit from modification then at least the issue of who consents is simplified.
Very true, it involves both, but only one makes the decision, the other is a technician.
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by SMUK44 » October 25th, 2019, 3:15 am

Kate wrote:
October 15th, 2019, 3:59 pm
SMUK44. In a society where most of the males have had a third to a half of their penis skin removed a person with normally functioning genitals becomes an object of curiosity. I cannot imagine the effect this has had on your life and this is much more than an ethical matter. The psychological and physiological aspects are of far greater concern to the individuals involved. I would like to personal message with you but so far I am not eligible to on this forum.
I’d be happy for you to message me, but I am also unable to do so on this forum.

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SMUK44
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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by SMUK44 » October 26th, 2019, 7:59 pm

Kate wrote:
October 24th, 2019, 9:44 pm
But it usually involves both parents and practitioners.
(This is an emotive topic for me and my objectivity in discussing it is questionable.)
As you say above, progress is being made. And even if it is does involve a migration of the mutilation to other parts of the body that are thought to benefit from modification then at least the issue of who consents is simplified.
Just wondering why your objectivity is questionable? Have you had experience of this in your life?

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Kate
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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Kate » October 28th, 2019, 5:10 pm

SMUK44, I have had experience of this and hope to message you.

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by SMUK44 » November 1st, 2019, 2:41 am

Kate wrote:
October 28th, 2019, 5:10 pm
SMUK44, I have had experience of this and hope to message you.
I’d be happy for you to mail me.

smuk44 @ protonmail .com

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