Consciousness, what is and what it requires?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Post Reply
User avatar
Thomyum2
Posts: 366
Joined: June 10th, 2019, 4:21 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Robert Pirsig + William James

Re: Consciousness, what is and what it requires?

Post by Thomyum2 »

Consul wrote: December 2nd, 2019, 7:10 pm
RJG wrote: December 2nd, 2019, 4:51 pmWhen we are conscious, we are ONLY conscious of physical bodily reactions ("physical experiences"). And NOTHING else! -- If you disagree, then please give an example of a case where conscious perception is of a non-bodily reaction. I'm sure you will not find any such case.
For example, if you claim that we can consciously perceive a tree outside our window, then you are mistaken, as it is not the tree itself that we are conscious of, it is the physical bodily reaction caused by the light waves bouncing off the tree and reflecting into our eyes, impacting our optic nerves, creating the conscious experience of perceiving the tree. For without this physical bodily reaction, there would be nothing for us to be conscious of.
A "conscious experience" is a physical bodily experience that we are conscious of.
No, when you see a tree, what you see—the object of your visual perception—is the tree and not the neurophysiological process causing your visual perception of it.
I agree - to point to the ‘bodily reaction’ as the point where consciousness begins it problematic because the ‘body’ itself is not clearly defined. This could be a separate thread or topic in its own right, but it is not such an easy task as it seems to distinguish between what is part of one’s body and what is not, or which parts of it do or do not have a role in perception and consciousness. The ‘boundary’ of our the body, both in time and in space, is a somewhat arbitrary notion, and reminiscent of the Ship of Theseus problem. At what point does some thing or some sensation ‘enter’ our body from outside to create that experience? At what point in the chain of events does it go from being a mere physical occurrence to becoming something that we perceive and can be aware of? At the spatial boundary? At the first cellular membrane? At the point it enters the nervous system? At the brain? Which part of the brain then?
“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.”
— Epictetus
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7092
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Consciousness, what is and what it requires?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Papus79 wrote: November 4th, 2019, 8:19 am This actually hits on an issue that I've been running into before, ie. that when certain intuitions 'pan out' and random chance doesn't explain it or when we find ourselves observing strong synchronicities, if we're not averse to some radical form of functionalism (which anymore I'd say that I'm not) much of this is most likely layers of cross-talk that we don't have access to on our own introspection, that its technically 'real' but that its so remote that our intuitions about it quite often won't be valid in that it can't be read literally by the time it gets too us - too much information has been lost. It's interesting to think that on certain levels above us there are organizing contracts of sorts that are regulating groups of people in a self-aware manner similar to how I hold my brain together as one me.
But most "intuitions" do not pan out to reality. There is strong selective bias to focus on the ones that do, but the brain is searching for the patterns and trends all the time, until it hits one that is successful. And successful does not always mean true or even real.
I'd not heard the name Hoffman before I read you post but I did take a look at his TED talk; pretty standard stuff. But one thing he does is review the evolutionary argument for seeing as accurate against seeing as successful.
We do not see what is accurate as much as what works to our survival. RED is all important way beyond the quale to "see" a colour. Red is blood, red is the berry, the tomato. Food is on the cutting edge of evolution. Plants have benefited from this colour bias to help distribute their seed. It goes further than that. Red is sex. red painted lips have far more meaning and emotive reaction to a man than unpainted lips. When a man sees a naked woman, he's not just seeing a collection of flesh, he sees something desirable. And like the Australian Jewel Beetle that can't stop himself **** a dimpled beer bottle, the human male spaffs his load over Internet Porn, to no advantage except base pleasure.
SO yeah we find syncronicities, but they are not necessarily there. People see god all the time. Since there are so many religions they cannot all be right, but many seem keen enough to kill others when they think they are right.

"It's interesting to think that on certain levels above us there are organizing contracts of sorts that are regulating groups of people in a self-aware manner similar to how I hold my brain together as one me."

This bit, not sure I could agree.
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: Consciousness, what is and what it requires?

Post by RJG »

Consul wrote:No, when you see a tree, what you see—the object of your visual perception— is the tree and not the neurophysiological process causing your visual perception of it.
So, in other words, "the tree" that you are conscious of is the one created by your physical brain processes, ...correct?

And so, if we perceive a ghost flying about, it is NOT the actual/real ghost that we perceive, but instead it is "the ghost" that was created by our physical brain processes, ...correct?

If correct, then you (Consul) and I, may have reached an agreement here.
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Consciousness, what is and what it requires?

Post by Atla »

RJG wrote: December 2nd, 2019, 8:32 am
RJG wrote:Sorry, but physical "objects" and "experiences" are NOT the same thing. Check your local dictionary.
Atla wrote:But my local dictionary is based on a centuries old hallucination. That hallucination is embedded on all levels in Western thinking. Everyone is wrong here.
Atla, you seemingly contradict yourself. -- If as you claim, "everything is an hallucination", then so is your point. If you are "certain that everything is uncertain" then you undercut the validity of your own words.
I totally didn't said anything like "everything is a hallucination".. whatever
True philosophy points to the Moon
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Consciousness, what is and what it requires?

Post by Atla »

Consul wrote: December 1st, 2019, 4:22 pm What do you mean by "Western philosophy" and "Western thinking"?
..
All Western thinking is dualistic. (Here dualistic means something like: thing-ifying, pluralistic, dual, countable, reifies the abstract forms of thoughts and treats them as concrete. There's just no good way to put it.)

Eastern philosophy has both dualistic and nondual thinking. These are the two major forms of human thinking, but from what I can tell, you guys on this forum aren't aware of the other one (the correct one).

I'm not saying that the great Western physicists fully understood this, but modern physics just isn't compatible with dualistic thinking, with Western worldviews in general.
True philosophy points to the Moon
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: Consciousness, what is and what it requires?

Post by RJG »

Atla wrote:Besides there are no subjects and objects either.
Atla wrote:There is no 'physical' and 'mental'.
Atla wrote:These are made-up categories, people hallucinated them a few hundred to thousand years ago, and then reified them.
...
RJG wrote:Atla, you seemingly contradict yourself. -- If as you claim, "everything is an hallucination", then so is your point. If you are "certain that everything is uncertain" then you undercut the validity of your own words.
Atla wrote:I totally didn't said anything like "everything is a hallucination".. whatever
If there is no ("subject or object" or "physical or mental" entity named) "Atla", then who/what is making these "subjective" statements/points of view? If "Atla" is just an hallucination (as Atla claims) then so are the statements that Atla says and writes. Atla's very own statements/words thereby 'defeat' the validity/legitimacy of Atla's argument!
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6038
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Consciousness, what is and what it requires?

Post by Consul »

Atla wrote: December 3rd, 2019, 1:18 pmAll Western thinking is dualistic. (Here dualistic means something like: thing-ifying, pluralistic, dual, countable, reifies the abstract forms of thoughts and treats them as concrete. There's just no good way to put it.)
Eastern philosophy has both dualistic and nondual thinking. These are the two major forms of human thinking, but from what I can tell, you guys on this forum aren't aware of the other one (the correct one).
I'm not saying that the great Western physicists fully understood this, but modern physics just isn't compatible with dualistic thinking, with Western worldviews in general.
This is off-topic, so just two remarks:

1. A dualism is always one between two kinds of things (in the broadest sense of "thing"), so we would first have to talk about what exactly those two kinds of things are.

2. In any case, it is not true that "all Western thinking is dualistic," and that "modern physics just isn't compatible with dualistic thinking, with Western worldviews in general."
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6038
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Consciousness, what is and what it requires?

Post by Consul »

RJG wrote: December 3rd, 2019, 7:52 am
Consul wrote:No, when you see a tree, what you see—the object of your visual perception— is the tree and not the neurophysiological process causing your visual perception of it.
So, in other words, "the tree" that you are conscious of is the one created by your physical brain processes, ...correct?
No, brain processes don't create trees but sensory appearances or impressions of them. The tree is the intentional object of perception—that which I perceive—, and the sensory tree-appearance/-impression (the sensation involved) is the experiential content of perception—that which I experience. The intentional object is perceived through the experiential content, the latter of which is experienced but not itself perceived. When you see a tree, what you see is the tree and not your seeing of it, which is constituted by your having of visual impressions of the tree. You don't see the visual impressions you have, because your having of visual impressions IS your seeing of (other) things.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: Consciousness, what is and what it requires?

Post by RJG »

RJG wrote:So, in other words, "the tree" that you are conscious of is the one created by your physical brain processes, ...correct?

And so, if we perceive a ghost flying about, it is NOT the actual/real ghost that we perceive, but instead it is "the ghost" that was created by our physical brain processes, ...correct?
Consul wrote:No, brain processes don't create trees but sensory appearances or impressions of them.
Consul, you are playing games here. [deep exhale]. Okay, so then physical brain processes create [the "mental impressions"] of "the tree" and "the ghost" that we are conscious of, ...correct?

Consul wrote:When you see a tree, what you see is the tree and not your seeing of it...
Yikes! Now you seem to be saying that when we see a "ghost", we are actually seeing the 'real' "ghost" himself!! Can we actually know the 'cause' of our delusions ("mental impressions")? Can we actually know which of our delusions/hallucinations are real, and which are not-real (imagined; delusion-ed)? NO IS THE ANSWER.

We are only privy to (conscious; knowing of) our "mental impressions", that's it! ...and not to the 'causes' of these mental impressions! The causes can only be speculated, and never known with certainty by themselves, ...no matter what Searle says!
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6038
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Consciousness, what is and what it requires?

Post by Consul »

RJG wrote: December 3rd, 2019, 9:20 pm
Consul wrote:No, brain processes don't create trees but sensory appearances or impressions of them.
Consul, you are playing games here.
No, I'm drawing important distinctions.
RJG wrote: December 3rd, 2019, 9:20 pmOkay, [deep exhale] -- So then physical brain processes create the "mental impressions" of "the tree" and "the ghost" that we are conscious of, ...correct?
No, when you see a tree and are thereby conscious of it, the only thing created by your brain is your visual impression of the tree.
RJG wrote: December 3rd, 2019, 9:20 pm
Consul wrote:When you see a tree, what you see is the tree and not your seeing of it...
Yikes! Now you seem to be saying that when we see a "ghost", we are actually seeing the 'real' "ghost" himself!! Can we tell when we are hallucinating/delusional or not hallucinating/delusional? Or is everything that we consciously perceive really real?
Consul, I suspect that you have been reading too much of Searle's Fantasy Philosophy.
As far as the nature of perception is concerned, he's right!

Hallucinations aren't cases of perception, because their intentional objects do not exist; and you cannot perceive what isn't there. To have a hallucinatory visual impression of something is to experience something (some visual sensation), but it's not to perceive anything, since there is nothing to perceive. Hallucinations are experientially contentful but existentially objectless. Of course, the hallucinating subject may mistake her/his hallucinatory experience for a veridical perception of something (existent).
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: Consciousness, what is and what it requires?

Post by RJG »

Consul wrote:No, when you see a tree and are thereby conscious of it, the only thing created by your brain is your visual impression of the tree.
Are you conscious of this visual/mental impression or of the 'real' tree (and ghost) himself?

Consul wrote:Hallucinations aren't cases of perception, because their intentional objects do not exist; and you cannot perceive what isn't there.
Yes, of course, hallucinations are not of real objects. But this side-steps the issue here. The issue is what is it exactly that you are conscious of when conscious of something? Are you conscious of the "mental impression" (that was created by your brain processes) or of the real tree/ghost himself?

The possibility of hallucinations/delusions gives us the answer! We are therefore ONLY conscious of our "mental impressions", and not that which causes our mental impressions. You have no way of knowing if you are hallucinating or not hallucinating. You have no way of knowing if your conscious perception of a tree or the ghost is real, ...you are only conscious of "mental impressions"!!
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6038
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Consciousness, what is and what it requires?

Post by Consul »

RJG wrote: December 3rd, 2019, 9:20 pmWe are only privy to (conscious; knowing of) our "mental impressions", that's it! ...and not to the 'causes' of these mental impressions! The causes can only be speculated, and never known with certainty by themselves, ...no matter what Searle says!
It's a fundamental idealistic mistake to believe that the (experiential) contents of perception are also its (intentional) objects, such that we never perceive anything external and objective, but always something internal and subjective—some sensation (sensory impression or appearance). For we do have perceptual access to nonexperiential/nonmental reality! My mind is not a windowless dungeon!
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: Consciousness, what is and what it requires?

Post by RJG »

Consul wrote:It's a fundamental idealistic mistake to believe that the (experiential) contents of perception are also its (intentional) objects, such that we never perceive anything external and objective, but always something internal and subjective—some sensation (sensory impression or appearance). For we do have perceptual access to nonexperiential/nonmental reality! My mind is not a windowless dungeon!
Your mind can only see "mental impressions", not the 'cause' of these mental impressions. So, in this sense, you are trapped within a "windowless dungeon"! Your belief otherwise, or your claim that the tree is not-real and the ghost is real is purely speculative at best.
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6038
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Consciousness, what is and what it requires?

Post by Consul »

RJG wrote: December 3rd, 2019, 10:04 pm
Consul wrote:No, when you see a tree and are thereby conscious of it, the only thing created by your brain is your visual impression of the tree.
Are you conscious of this visual/mental impression or of the 'real' tree (and ghost) himself?
I'm conscious or aware of the tree (only)—unless my sense-perceptual or extrospective consciousness/awareness of the tree is accompanied by introspective or reflective consciousness/awareness of my tree-impressions (my visual sensations functioning as visual impressions or appearances of the tree).
The capacity for sensory perception doesn't depend on the capacity for introspection or reflection. All animals have the former, but most of them lack the latter.
RJG wrote: December 3rd, 2019, 10:04 pm
Consul wrote:Hallucinations aren't cases of perception, because their intentional objects do not exist; and you cannot perceive what isn't there.
Yes, of course, hallucinations are not of real objects. But this side-steps the issue here. The issue is what is it exactly that you are conscious of when conscious of something? Are you conscious of the "mental impression" (that was created by your brain processes) or of the real tree/ghost himself?

The possibility of hallucinations/delusions gives us the answer! We are therefore ONLY conscious of our "mental impressions", and not that which causes our mental impressions. You have no way of knowing if you are hallucinating or not hallucinating. You have no way of knowing if your conscious perception of a tree or the ghost is real, ...you are only conscious of "mental impressions"!!
Nope!
First of all, there's a distinction between the epistemology of perception and its ontology (its essence or nature). I'm talking about the latter!

In the case of (veridical) perception, the subject seems to be sense-perceptually or extrospectively conscious/aware of something and is really extrospectively conscious/aware of something. The subject may but needn't be introspectively conscious/aware of her/his (nonhallucinatory) sensations.

In the case of hallucination, the subject seems to be sense-perceptually or extrospectively conscious/aware of something but is really extrospectively conscious/aware of nothing. The subject may but needn't be introspectively conscious/aware of her/his (hallucinatory) sensations; and s/he may but needn't be conscious/aware of the fact that what seems to be a (veridical) perception is a hallucination.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6038
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Consciousness, what is and what it requires?

Post by Consul »

RJG wrote: December 3rd, 2019, 10:12 pmYour mind can only see "mental impressions", not the 'cause' of these mental impressions. So, in this sense, you are trapped within a "windowless dungeon"! Your belief otherwise, or your claim that the tree is not-real and the ghost is real is purely speculative at best.
No, you cannot see your visual impressions. I agree with Searle—see below!

I've never had any hallucination (and I'm not keen on having one), so I don't know from my own experience whether hallucinations are or can be subjectively indistinguishable from veridical perceptions.

———

"The subjective visual field has to be sharply distinguished from the objective visual field. The former is an intentional presentation of the latter.

The objective visual field is ontologically public and objective, a third-person set of objects and states of affairs that are identified relative to a particular perceiver and his or her point of view. So right now, the objective visual field for me consists of all the objects and states of affairs that I can see under these lighting conditions in my present physiological and psychological state and from this point of view. The subjective visual field is ontologically private, a first-person set of experiences that go on entirely in the head.

In the objective visual field, everything is seen or can be seen; in the subjective visual field, nothing is seen nor can be seen.

My objective visual field is defined as the set of objects and states of affairs that are visible from my point of view under these conditions. My subjective visual field, on the other hand, is ontologically subjective, and it exists entirely in my brain. The most important thing to re-emphasize is that in the subjective visual field, nothing is seen. This is not because the entities in the subjective visual field are invisible, but rather because their existence is the seeing of objects in the objective visual field. One thing you cannot see when you see anything is your seeing of that thing. And this holds whether or not the case is a good case or a bad case, whether it is veridical or hallucinatory, because in the hallucinatory case you do not see anything. And, in particular, you do not see the hallucinatory seeing. To think otherwise, to think that the entities in the subjective visual field are themselves seen, is to commit the Bad Argument. It is, as I have argued earlier, the disaster from which a large number of the disasters of Western philosophy over the past four centuries result.

I actually believe that if this point had been appreciated, not just about vision but about perception in general, from the seventeenth century on, the entire history of Western philosophy would have been different. Many truly appalling mistakes—from Descartes' Representative Theory of Perception all the way through to Kant's Transcendental Idealism and beyond—would have been avoided if everybody understood you cannot see or otherwise perceive anything in the subjective perceptual field."


(Searle, John R. Seeing Things As They Are: A Theory of Perception. New York: Oxford University Press, 2015. pp. 106-7)
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
Post Reply

Return to “Epistemology and Metaphysics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021