Is Time Just an Idea?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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RJG
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by RJG »

RJG wrote:Some interpretations of "time":

1. Time (the dimension itself) -- logically possible
2. The Measurement of Time -- logically impossible
3. The Measurement of Objects -- logically possible
Terrapin Station wrote:"The dimension itself" is simply motion or change.
I think it is more accurate to say -- without the dimension of Time, there could be no motion/change of objects. - And likewise, without the 3D's of space, there could be no objects.

Without time, all objects would be motionless; frozen. Absolutely NOTHING happens (changes; moves) in a "timeless" state. -- It is Time (the 4th dimension) that allows 3D objects a direction to move and interact with other objects.

-- [edited text above] --
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NickGaspar
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by NickGaspar »

People are misled by simple things. They assume just because a phenomenon has a label,
there must be an entity or a substance behind it.(also see consciousness and the mesh of philosophy we have today).
Our brain is a hostage of the empirical nature of everyday reality.

They are unable to distinguish mental abstract concepts used to describe or measure (metrics)
properties or foundational quantities of physical processes from names and titles which are used as "tags" in order to label actual physical structures!

They also fail to understand that words have different meanings and more than one common usages because we can describe different aspects of a phenomenon.(Ambiguity fallacy).
i,e.
(time as an observable phenomenon or as the act of quantifying and measuring it etc(or as an unchangeable idealistic entity for some fellows)).
(Dimensions as an mental abstract concept (space dimensions) or as a specific metric value of a foundational quantity of a physical structure (Physical Dimensions of an object)).

So Dimensions(spatial and temporal) are concepts( metric) used to describe and quantify specific foundational properties of matter.

Because matter has these spatial and temporal foundational quantities, we are able to apply those conceptual metrics and quantify them....not the other way around.

Because there is motion, we can theorize the concept of time and space...not the other way around.
We should not use our mental concepts as a magical catalysts , enabler of a process. Our concepts just describe their characteristics, they do not enable them.

What we currently observe is Space being a "type of matter" and the phenomenon of what we call "time" (processes not happening ALl at once and at a different pace)can be quantified through the concept of "dimensions". Dimensions of matter are not fixed, they are relative. The same exact physical structure under different scenarios(gravity,motion), can have different metrical values. Physical structures don't have fixed spatial and temporal dimensions under all conditions.This is the best systematic knowledge we currently posses.

By denying those facts, it just makes people guilty for practicing pseudo philosophy.
Steve3007
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by Steve3007 »

Steve3007 wrote:They're all physical quantities. Do some seem more ephemeral (or just plain ridiculous) than others? If so, why?
Terrapin Station wrote:Not to me, no. They're all terms for concrete phenomena of some sort. My approach to this sort of stuff is basically positivist.
Fair enough. I have a broadly positivist approach too (at least, according to my limited understanding of the worldview represented by that word).

They are words for quantities that can be represented by terms in mathematical equations that relate to measurable experiences/sensations. But I think you'll still find some people expressing scepticism that a quantity like "strangeness" (a property of quarks), for example, is not just part of the fevered imagination of some physicists, who have wrapped themselves so tightly in their mathematics that they've lost their good old fashioned common sense. I think some people on this site will tell you something like that. Those people probably won't say the same thing about a property like length. Which I think is interesting.

But perhaps it's even more interesting that, as you've said, some people have mystical notions about time despite the fact that (unlike strangeness) it's as familiar and everyday a concept as length.
Terrapin Station wrote:By "ephemeral" I simply meant another way of denoting the notion of properties or phenomena such as time being seen as something abstract-yet-objective (so a "real abstract" in the traditional parlance for this idea), or something like platonic forms, where folks are assuming those exist and we don't experience them directly. I wouldn't say that describes anything, because I don't buy that there are any real abstracts, any platonic forms, etc.
As I've said at various times in the past, I simply fall back to which ideas and concepts are useful for helping us to achieve our goals. One of the primary goals that we all share is the goal of successfully describing and predicting our sensations.

That's why, when you stated your philosophical position (the "-ism" to which you subscribe) I asked "how's that working out for you?". I meant to ask whether that position helps you to achieve your goals.

Something you said earlier which I didn't properly address at that time:
Terrapin Station wrote:So it's what clocks do, really. As well as what everything else does.
I agree, since I take the second sentence here to mean that it's what any physical system that could in any way be used as a clock does. This is the very general sense in which the word "clock" is used throughout explanations of Special and General Relativity. Similarly for the word "ruler".
Tamminen
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by Tamminen »

As Thomyum2 says
the event is 'the fundamental entity of observed physical reality represented by a point designated by three coordinates of place and one of time in the space-time continuum'
So we have coordinate systems and project our observations on them. Our coordinate systems are functions of relative speed, acceleration and gravity. So time seen as a dimension is also a function of relative speed, acceleration and gravity. Note that a dimension in this sense can be finite. For instance time stops in a black hole, seen from our perspective, ie. there is a point with no temporal "beyond".
creation
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by creation »

NickGaspar wrote: January 9th, 2020, 1:55 am
Do you understand that words have more than one common usages(definitions).?
Steve3007 wrote: January 7th, 2020, 12:25 pm
Since words have no standard meanings I have no idea what any of the above post says.
This is a prime example of why talking to more than one person at a time, here in this forum, can be so difficult and just a complete waste of time, sometimes.

One person tells me that words have more than one definition, while another person tells me that they cannot understand me unless I use words from the standard meaning of words.

If words have a standard meaning (definition), then just inform us of what those standard definitions (meanings) are.

Until then, to me, there is no shared common usage, definitions, nor meaning for words, in the absolute sense. This is because words can have many different meanings, and even one word can have opposing meanings, so this means that the "standard" meanings of some words can mean the exact opposite thing. So, without clarifying with the speaker or writer, then what the actual meaning of a word is, can never be truly known.

Therefore, the "standard" meanings, or definitions, can never be known unless there is a shared discussion beforehand about what the definitions and meanings are, for the words to be used, and an agreement and acceptance is made.

Words can mean many different things to many different people.

Besides this fact the meanings of words evolve, over time as well.

So, if there is a an actual place where the forever more so called "standard meaning of words" already exists, then just link us to that place.
creation
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by creation »

Tamminen wrote: January 10th, 2020, 10:15 am As @Thomyum2 says
the event is 'the fundamental entity of observed physical reality represented by a point designated by three coordinates of place and one of time in the space-time continuum'
So we have coordinate systems and project our observations on them. Our coordinate systems are functions of relative speed, acceleration and gravity. So time seen as a dimension is also a function of relative speed, acceleration and gravity. Note that a dimension in this sense can be finite. For instance time stops in a black hole, seen from our perspective, ie. there is a point with no temporal "beyond".
But, if you are open, then there is temporal beyond a black hole, which can be very easily observed, seen and understood.
Steve3007
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by Steve3007 »

Steve3007 wrote:Since words have no standard meanings I have no idea what any of the above post says.
I made this satirical comment (after another of your long, long posts) in exasperation after you made the self contradictory claim (using words) that words have no standard meanings. Since it was made in that spirit, I'm happy to retract it and acknowledge that satire has no place here.
creation wrote:One person tells me that words have more than one definition, while another person tells me that they cannot understand me unless I use words from the standard meaning of words.]
If I am the second person to which you are referring in the above, then I did not say that. I said either use the standard meaning of a word or if you think there is some ambiguity or you wish to use a private meaning of your own, state your definition.

As an example, I asked you to clarify the way in which you were using the word "acceleration". Do you agree with me that that word, at least, has a single, unambiguous standard definition, whereas a more vague word like "thing" does not?

(If you answer this post, I'd like to request that you try to do so as succinctly as possible. Try to keep it to a page or less.)
creation
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by creation »

Steve3007 wrote: January 10th, 2020, 10:47 am
Steve3007 wrote:Since words have no standard meanings I have no idea what any of the above post says.
I made this satirical comment (after another of your long, long posts) in exasperation after you made the self contradictory claim (using words) that words have no standard meanings. Since it was made in that spirit, I'm happy to retract it and acknowledge that satire has no place here.
You can retract that and anything else if you want. But you have now made the claim that saying, "Words have no standard meaning" is self-contradictory. So, you have another claim to which you will need to back up, for it to have any truth to it.

If you want to keep insisting, "Words have a standard meaning".

Then you will now have to explain to us what is the word 'standard' relative to exactly?

If you want to claim that words have a 'standard meaning', then are you referring to absolutely every word, or just some?

If words have a 'standard meaning', then to who and to how many people does 'standard meaning' refer to?

I can back up my claims, let us see if you can back up your claims this time?
Steve3007
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by Steve3007 »

creation wrote:But you have now made the claim that saying, "Words have no standard meaning" is self-contradictory. So, you have another claim to which you will need to back up, for it to have any truth to it.
If someone were to utter the above sentence to you, and not tell you what the words in that sentence mean, would you be able to make any sense of it? If so, how?
Steve3007
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by Steve3007 »

creation wrote:I can back up my claims, let us see if you can back up your claims this time?
Focus. Tell me exactly which claims you are referring to. And, if you want me to continue talking to you, please deal with what I asked you about the specific example of the word "acceleration". If you do not want me to continue talking to you, do something different to that.
Steve3007
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by Steve3007 »

creation wrote:If you want to keep insisting, "Words have a standard meaning".
Do not simply tell me that I have been saying "Words have a standard meaning". Quote the passage in which you propose that I have said that. Preferably also read the passage before quoting it.
creation
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by creation »

Steve3007 wrote: January 10th, 2020, 10:47 am
creation wrote:One person tells me that words have more than one definition, while another person tells me that they cannot understand me unless I use words from the standard meaning of words.]
If I am the second person to which you are referring in the above, then I did not say that.
You wrote: Since words have no standard meanings I have no idea what any of the above post says.

Steve3007 wrote: January 10th, 2020, 10:47 am I said either use the standard meaning of a word or if you think there is some ambiguity or you wish to use a private meaning of your own, state your definition.
I used the word "acceleration", and it was like I had committed some heinous crime to you.

I know why you said what you did, but you showed absolutely no interest in finding out why I used that word. You just wanted to jump on the 'superiority' ladder, once again.
Steve3007 wrote: January 10th, 2020, 10:47 amAs an example, I asked you to clarify the way in which you were using the word "acceleration".
Is that what you asked for?
Steve3007 wrote: January 10th, 2020, 10:47 am Do you agree with me that that word, at least, has a single, unambiguous standard definition, whereas a more vague word like "thing" does not?
Of course some words have a perceived more "standard definition" than other words do. But I have already explained why words, themselves, do not have an actual "standard meaning".

See, I know and understand why you say the things that you do, but you do not yet know nor understand why I say the things I do.
Steve3007 wrote: January 10th, 2020, 10:47 am(If you answer this post, I'd like to request that you try to do so as succinctly as possible. Try to keep it to a page or less.)
If you respond to me I request that you are open, and stop making wrong assumptions.

Also, it would be great if you just stayed on the topic and discussed that instead of these deflecting issues.

Time is obviously nothing more than the action of measuring. This fact then leads to the obvious fact there is no actual time dilation, which leads onto why the scientific community has the inconsistencies on time, and on space for that matter. Looking at this, and discussing this only, then exposes where the inconsistencies are, and why they came to exist in the first place.
Steve3007
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by Steve3007 »

creation wrote:Also, it would be great if you just stayed on the topic and discussed that instead of these deflecting issues
An excellent suggestion. Nice talking to you again.
creation
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by creation »

Steve3007 wrote: January 10th, 2020, 11:29 am
creation wrote:But you have now made the claim that saying, "Words have no standard meaning" is self-contradictory. So, you have another claim to which you will need to back up, for it to have any truth to it.
If someone were to utter the above sentence to you, and not tell you what the words in that sentence mean, would you be able to make any sense of it? If so, how?
Of course I could make sense of this. This is because I was brought up with the english language.

Obviously, you have, once again, not understood me.

Do you not understand me because;

1. You are assuming I am meaning something I am not?

2. You are not clarifying what I mean first?

3. Both 1 and 2?

4. The so called "standard meaning" of words is not so 'standard' after all?

5. A combination of any or all of these?
creation
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by creation »

Steve3007 wrote: January 10th, 2020, 11:33 am
creation wrote:I can back up my claims, let us see if you can back up your claims this time?
Focus. Tell me exactly which claims you are referring to.
Are you telling me to "focus", or telling yourself to "focus"?

Obviously the claims in the post that this is in reference to.

You made the claim that I made the self contradictory claim (using words) that words have no standard meanings.

They are the claims that I am referring to. If you focus, can you see the TWO claims in there. ONE from me, and ONE from you?
Steve3007 wrote: January 10th, 2020, 11:33 am And, if you want me to continue talking to you, please deal with what I asked you about the specific example of the word "acceleration".
I have told you already I do not care if you talk to me or not. I seriously do not care. Did you miss that also, or did you just forget it?

There was and still is absolutely nothing to deal with anyway.
Steve3007 wrote: January 10th, 2020, 11:33 amIf you do not want me to continue talking to you, do something different to that.
I absolutely do not care if you continue talking or not.

You have not yet once even got close to discussing what I have started talking about anyway. The reason why is obvious.

So far, you have not said anything of any importance.
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