Is abortion wrong?

Discuss morality and ethics in this message board.
Featured Article: Philosophical Analysis of Abortion, The Right to Life, and Murder
Post Reply
User avatar
amplified cactus
Posts: 26
Joined: December 29th, 2019, 6:00 pm

Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by amplified cactus » December 31st, 2019, 3:31 am

LuckyR wrote:
December 31st, 2019, 3:22 am
amplified cactus wrote:
December 31st, 2019, 2:53 am

Yes, at least in principle. It's difficult to imagine circumstances where a woman would choose to do that. If she has carried the pregnancy to term, and has been happy with it up to that point, it would be odd for her to change her mind at the last minute. We'd need to make sure that she really does want to revoke consent and to use lethal force, and that she's not just saying this as a result of being high on drugs or something like that.
Then very few, if any professional medical ethicists agree with you, let alone lay society.
I was already aware of that. My views are not based on what professional ethicists or lay society would agree with. Having relatively unpopular moral views is a problem insofar as it means it's unlikely that the community will adopt your proposals, but I don't see this as any reason to change my views.

User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 4335
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by LuckyR » January 2nd, 2020, 2:48 am

amplified cactus wrote:
December 31st, 2019, 3:31 am
LuckyR wrote:
December 31st, 2019, 3:22 am


Then very few, if any professional medical ethicists agree with you, let alone lay society.
I was already aware of that. My views are not based on what professional ethicists or lay society would agree with. Having relatively unpopular moral views is a problem insofar as it means it's unlikely that the community will adopt your proposals, but I don't see this as any reason to change my views.
I am happy to hear, though not at all surprised that you base you personal moral code on your personal views. Though there is an important difference between not basing one's opinions on those of others and being closed off from learning from other's experience.
"As usual... it depends."

User avatar
marceltr
New Trial Member
Posts: 4
Joined: January 10th, 2020, 8:30 am

Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by marceltr » January 10th, 2020, 9:01 am

I think its so so so wrong. Just imagine you kill a baby.

User avatar
Steve3007
Posts: 8145
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Eratosthenes of Cyrene
Location: UK

Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Steve3007 » January 12th, 2020, 4:04 pm

amplified cactus wrote:For me it's simple: (1) Others have the right to occupy your body only with your explicit consent. (2) You have the right to revoke consent to the occupation of your body for any reason at any time. (3) It's acceptable to use lethal force against somebody occupying your body without your consent.
When we exercise our right to expel unwanted occupiers, would you say that we have the duty to allow them reasonable time to make their exit before killing them? For example, if I have a guest in my house and I decided that I no longer want that guest in my house, do I have the right to immediately shoot him dead? Or do I have the duty to let him know that he's no longer welcome and give him reasonable time to stand up and make for the door before reaching for my gun?

If the answer is "yes" then I suppose the next question (possibly a trickier one) is what constitutes "reasonable". I wonder how long we should give a foetus to exit our bodies before withdrawing life support.

User avatar
h_k_s
Posts: 1217
Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by h_k_s » January 12th, 2020, 9:48 pm

cynicallyinsane wrote:
April 20th, 2007, 6:45 pm
Is abortion wrong? Is it okay? Why?
@cynicallyinsane vanished from this forum back in 2007 -- 13 years ago.

Yet the thread lives on. Amazing.

User avatar
h_k_s
Posts: 1217
Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by h_k_s » January 12th, 2020, 9:51 pm

marceltr wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 9:01 am
I think its so so so wrong. Just imagine you kill a baby.
Aren't you the new member who is having difficulty with Latin and English and "superior" and "inferior" also?

And now you also want to tackle the hot button of abortion in America?

That seems a bit ambitious to me, right off the bat, in a philosophy forum.

By the way, this thread topic is 13 years old.

And in those 13 years very little has changed in America to change everyone's views on it in general.

User avatar
h_k_s
Posts: 1217
Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by h_k_s » January 12th, 2020, 9:54 pm

amplified cactus wrote:
December 30th, 2019, 3:42 am
For me it's simple: (1) Others have the right to occupy your body only with your explicit consent. (2) You have the right to revoke consent to the occupation of your body for any reason at any time. (3) It's acceptable to use lethal force against somebody occupying your body without your consent.

So abortion is always permssible in my view. If I were king, there wouldn't be any restrictions on abortion at all.
I doubt that any sane king would tolerate the murder of any of their subjects, especially potential taxpayers.

User avatar
Greta
Site Admin
Posts: 9480
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Greta » January 12th, 2020, 9:54 pm

Just imagine you take a calf from its mother, each screaming in upset as they are parted. Then you coral and kill the calf. Then people buy its flesh in a plastic sealed packet at a supermarket, then they sear the flesh and eat it.

Life is inherently tough. Not everyone makes it.

I'm not sure why Right-to-Lifers stop caring once the baby is born. They argue against healthcare that would save many lives. They argue for pointless wars that take many lives. They argue for weak gun regulation that takes many lives. But the rights of an unformed being without sentience apparently trumps the rights of the sick, the victims of wars and of gunfire generally.

User avatar
h_k_s
Posts: 1217
Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by h_k_s » January 12th, 2020, 9:56 pm

Steve3007 wrote:
January 12th, 2020, 4:04 pm
amplified cactus wrote:For me it's simple: (1) Others have the right to occupy your body only with your explicit consent. (2) You have the right to revoke consent to the occupation of your body for any reason at any time. (3) It's acceptable to use lethal force against somebody occupying your body without your consent.
When we exercise our right to expel unwanted occupiers, would you say that we have the duty to allow them reasonable time to make their exit before killing them? For example, if I have a guest in my house and I decided that I no longer want that guest in my house, do I have the right to immediately shoot him dead? Or do I have the duty to let him know that he's no longer welcome and give him reasonable time to stand up and make for the door before reaching for my gun?

If the answer is "yes" then I suppose the next question (possibly a trickier one) is what constitutes "reasonable". I wonder how long we should give a foetus to exit our bodies before withdrawing life support.
Those "rights" of "expelling" are very strictly regulated by laws, don't forget.

User avatar
h_k_s
Posts: 1217
Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by h_k_s » January 12th, 2020, 10:08 pm

Greta wrote:
January 12th, 2020, 9:54 pm
Just imagine you take a calf from its mother, each screaming in upset as they are parted. Then you coral and kill the calf. Then people buy its flesh in a plastic sealed packet at a supermarket, then they sear the flesh and eat it.

Life is inherently tough. Not everyone makes it.

I'm not sure why Right-to-Lifers stop caring once the baby is born. They argue against healthcare that would save lives. They argue for pointless that take lives.
Animal slaughter is cruel in all aspects, and forbidden by Buddhist principles. It is one of the forbidden professions.

On a farm or ranch, it is carried out on a smaller scale and always emotionally distressing to both the animal and to the farmer/rancher.

On an industrial scale, only the first employee who handles the skull piston is affected by the cruelty of the process. The rest of the assembly line workers are just handling a carcass that must then be skinned, gutted, halved, and cleaned for further processing. Most meat plants then send out the half-carcasses for further processing and distribution. The process thus dehumanizes the endeavor.

All the animals that I have ever killed died quickly not knowing what hit them. In most cases it was either a 30 caliber hunting bullet, or shotgun shot, or a 22 caliber backpacker's bullet. And as many hunters do, I always apologize to the animal when I walk up to it, and I thank it for its meat, and then endeavor not to waste any of it.

My cat does not have the same consciousness when he hunts, stalks, pounces, and kills smaller animals. He relishes these meals.

So it must simply be a human characteristic of regret that we feel when we kill something.

I wonder how abortion doctors feel when they abort fetuses?

User avatar
Greta
Site Admin
Posts: 9480
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Greta » January 13th, 2020, 12:45 am

I expect they would feel ambivalence, just as vets do when they put down animals. Horrible work but someone has to do it.

User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 4335
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by LuckyR » January 13th, 2020, 3:49 am

h_k_s wrote:
January 12th, 2020, 10:08 pm
Greta wrote:
January 12th, 2020, 9:54 pm
Just imagine you take a calf from its mother, each screaming in upset as they are parted. Then you coral and kill the calf. Then people buy its flesh in a plastic sealed packet at a supermarket, then they sear the flesh and eat it.

Life is inherently tough. Not everyone makes it.

I'm not sure why Right-to-Lifers stop caring once the baby is born. They argue against healthcare that would save lives. They argue for pointless that take lives.
Animal slaughter is cruel in all aspects, and forbidden by Buddhist principles. It is one of the forbidden professions.

On a farm or ranch, it is carried out on a smaller scale and always emotionally distressing to both the animal and to the farmer/rancher.

On an industrial scale, only the first employee who handles the skull piston is affected by the cruelty of the process. The rest of the assembly line workers are just handling a carcass that must then be skinned, gutted, halved, and cleaned for further processing. Most meat plants then send out the half-carcasses for further processing and distribution. The process thus dehumanizes the endeavor.

All the animals that I have ever killed died quickly not knowing what hit them. In most cases it was either a 30 caliber hunting bullet, or shotgun shot, or a 22 caliber backpacker's bullet. And as many hunters do, I always apologize to the animal when I walk up to it, and I thank it for its meat, and then endeavor not to waste any of it.

My cat does not have the same consciousness when he hunts, stalks, pounces, and kills smaller animals. He relishes these meals.

So it must simply be a human characteristic of regret that we feel when we kill something.

I wonder how abortion doctors feel when they abort fetuses?
Funny how doctor's (who don't create the demand) feelings are questioned, but the mother's (who is creating the demand) is not questioned.
"As usual... it depends."

User avatar
marceltr
New Trial Member
Posts: 4
Joined: January 10th, 2020, 8:30 am

Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by marceltr » January 13th, 2020, 5:01 am

I'm not afraid what I said.

User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 2856
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Sculptor1 » January 13th, 2020, 5:41 am

h_k_s wrote:
January 12th, 2020, 10:08 pm

So it must simply be a human characteristic of regret that we feel when we kill something.

I wonder how abortion doctors feel when they abort fetuses?
I think they would pride themselves on doing the best job they can to minimise suffering and do no harm.

You have to wonder how doctors choose the specialisms of their career path.

Since there exist in the world proctologists, you have to wonder if medical professionals genuinely have a sense of detachment. Do they actively choose this are are they just filling a hole in the market?

User avatar
Greta
Site Admin
Posts: 9480
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Greta » January 13th, 2020, 5:48 am

Sculptor1 wrote:
January 13th, 2020, 5:41 am
Since there exist in the world proctologists, you have to wonder if medical professionals genuinely have a sense of detachment. Do they actively choose this are are they just filling a hole in the market?
Good point. By the same token, one may wonder if those who take on the job of sniffing underarms for deodorant research really care, or if they are just winging it.

Post Reply