Is Time Just an Idea?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

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Steve3007 wrote: January 13th, 2020, 7:21 am
Greta wrote:A thought experiment:

It's the far future and humanity has been replaced by beings like HG Wells's Morlocks. They are intelligent and time-aware, but not as intelligent as current humans. They are physically robust and adaptable, capable of living underground for extended periods.

A rogue black hole hurls the Earth from its orbit into interstellar space. Due to (fanciful) counter-spin forces, the planet's rotation rapidly slows down.

The Morlocks retreat to their underground lairs full-time. Without orbits and rotations, how do they tell the time? What is time to them? Is their time just an idea?
NickGaspar wrote:It is an idea based on a previous observation they had. Now they will have to based it on an new one...their biological clocks.
They will be forced, as a society, to organize and take care their needs (sleep,food)which are regulated by their biological clocks in order to survive and flourish
It's an interesting thought experiment isn't it? As Nick says, if they already have that history of using natural, celestial clocks then they could probably abstract from that and retain their notion of time. They could then, no doubt, devise other clocks. But if those other clocks gradually drifted out from synchronisation with celestial (natural) clocks (as our clocks and calendars do) they'd have no way of knowing that and, arguably, it wouldn't matter. Unless they emerge again one day.

It's also interesting to consider the extent to which human development of notions like time has been driven by our constant, very direct exposure to that vast clock in the sky: the heavenly bodies moving overhead with quite precise regularity. Through the vast majority of our history, when we set up camp for the night with nothing but firelight, that natural clock would have been un-ignorable. And archaeology suggests that we certainly didn't ignore it.

If it were possible for intelligent life to develop without ever having been exposed to that, at any point in their evolutionary history, I wonder what conceptions of time would it have.
As Nick noted, being not technological, their own body clocks would be about all they could use.

They would not be able to develop the kind of precise "time technology" that we have with Caesium atom decay, so it would be hard to imagine them having the ability to progress. However, in the absence of time synced to other natural phenomena, their circadian rhythm might become more precise.

Then again, even with celestial cues, there is (was? It's hard to know these days) an Amazonian tribe with a completely different approach to time https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-13452711

If your "world" is small enough, you can discard abstract concepts. In a way it's more realistic, because X in the future is not the same as X in the past. It's something new, that can be given any label.

Given that people on the same planet and the same species can come up with such different models (or lack) it boggles the mind to imagine how any intelligent species in other parts of the universe might conceptualise time. A binary star system, no moons, multiple moons and differing rotation rates would throw our everyday assumptions about time out the window.
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RJG
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

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RJG wrote:No, you've got it backwards. Motion and Matter cannot "create processes" without a 'means' to do so. This "means" is Spacetime (4D space).

1. Without Space, there can be no Matter.
2. Without Time, there can be no Motion.

It is "backwards" to believe:
1. Without Matter, there can be no Space.
2. Without Motion, there can be no Time.
NickGaspar wrote:In essence you have been promoting a "why question"...."why spacetime is possible in the first place".
Nonsense. Now you are showing your dishonesty and disingenuous-ness. This has nothing to do with "why spacetime is possible in the first place". You are just making up stuff, because you have nothing left to (rationally) argue with.

NickGaspar wrote:In reality, your idea is not in competition with our scientific understanding.
Yes! For your God-like "scientific understanding" is logically flawed. And your ignorance of basic "logical understanding" is the reason why you cling to indoctrinated beliefs.

NickGaspar wrote:You are promoting a magical, god-like speculation that has nothing to do with observations or their interpretations.
I am promoting the use of "Logic" over "observations". That part is true.
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

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Greta wrote: January 13th, 2020, 5:19 pm
Steve3007 wrote: January 13th, 2020, 7:21 am



It's an interesting thought experiment isn't it? As Nick says, if they already have that history of using natural, celestial clocks then they could probably abstract from that and retain their notion of time. They could then, no doubt, devise other clocks. But if those other clocks gradually drifted out from synchronisation with celestial (natural) clocks (as our clocks and calendars do) they'd have no way of knowing that and, arguably, it wouldn't matter. Unless they emerge again one day.

It's also interesting to consider the extent to which human development of notions like time has been driven by our constant, very direct exposure to that vast clock in the sky: the heavenly bodies moving overhead with quite precise regularity. Through the vast majority of our history, when we set up camp for the night with nothing but firelight, that natural clock would have been un-ignorable. And archaeology suggests that we certainly didn't ignore it.

If it were possible for intelligent life to develop without ever having been exposed to that, at any point in their evolutionary history, I wonder what conceptions of time would it have.
As Nick noted, being not technological, their own body clocks would be about all they could use.

They would not be able to develop the kind of precise "time technology" that we have with Caesium atom decay, so it would be hard to imagine them having the ability to progress. However, in the absence of time synced to other natural phenomena, their circadian rhythm might become more precise.

Then again, even with celestial cues, there is (was? It's hard to know these days) an Amazonian tribe with a completely different approach to time https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-13452711

If your "world" is small enough, you can discard abstract concepts. In a way it's more realistic, because X in the future is not the same as X in the past. It's something new, that can be given any label.

Given that people on the same planet and the same species can come up with such different models (or lack) it boggles the mind to imagine how any intelligent species in other parts of the universe might conceptualise time. A binary star system, no moons, multiple moons and differing rotation rates would throw our everyday assumptions about time out the window.
That is a really interesting article. Their environment and way of life must be the reason why those people didn't have the need to time different moments in their lives.
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

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Greta wrote:As Nick noted, being not technological, their own body clocks would be about all they could use.
Yes, and I suppose those body clocks would be a distant, imprecise echo of the celestial clocks that they left behind, in the presence of which they evolved. As ours are.
Then again, even with celestial cues, there is (was? It's hard to know these days) an Amazonian tribe with a completely different approach to time https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-13452711

If your "world" is small enough, you can discard abstract concepts. In a way it's more realistic, because X in the future is not the same as X in the past. It's something new, that can be given any label.

Given that people on the same planet and the same species can come up with such different models (or lack) it boggles the mind to imagine how any intelligent species in other parts of the universe might conceptualise time.
Interesting article. I think this also illustrates the pitfalls of abstraction and extrapolation. They're essential tools for helping us make predictions beyond our immediate, everyday experience. But it's sometimes forgotten that when we create abstractions, such as the concept of time, from observed phenomena, such as the concept of (natural) clocks, it is not a logical certainty that this concept will stay consistent and meaningful beyond the sensations from which they grew. It is only the process of Induction that makes us think that they will. In terms of time, the ultimate extrapolation is the Newtonian concept of a single, universal Time - the notion that there are the measurements made by clocks and that there is somehow some "real" time that exists independently of all those clocks - a Platonic Form of Time. This appears not to be the case.

So maybe that tribe has a point.
A binary star system, no moons, multiple moons and differing rotation rates would throw our everyday assumptions about time out the window.
Yes, a relatively complex orbit might mean that a species similar to ours might take longer to reach the stage of Kepler and Newton because the orbital maths would be more complicated. Assuming, of course, they could evolve at all.
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

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RJG wrote: January 13th, 2020, 5:45 pm
RJG wrote:No, you've got it backwards. Motion and Matter cannot "create processes" without a 'means' to do so. This "means" is Spacetime (4D space).

1. Without Space, there can be no Matter.
2. Without Time, there can be no Motion.

It is "backwards" to believe:
1. Without Matter, there can be no Space.
2. Without Motion, there can be no Time.
NickGaspar wrote:In essence you have been promoting a "why question"...."why spacetime is possible in the first place".
Nonsense. Now you are showing your dishonesty and disingenuous-ness. This has nothing to do with "why spacetime is possible in the first place". You are just making up stuff, because you have nothing left to (rationally) argue with.

NickGaspar wrote:In reality, your idea is not in competition with our scientific understanding.
Yes! For your God-like "scientific understanding" is logically flawed. And your ignorance of basic "logical understanding" is the reason why you cling to indoctrinated beliefs.

NickGaspar wrote:You are promoting a magical, god-like speculation that has nothing to do with observations or their interpretations.
I am promoting the use of "Logic" over "observations". That part is true.
It was really nice talking to you again.
Unfortunately I don't really have time or am interested in "theological" explanations.
But feel free to tag me if and when you come up with a clear ontological definition about this....... "a"means" to do so".
Who knows, maybe you are on to something more than a magical explanation.
I guess we will see.
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

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Steve3007 wrote: January 13th, 2020, 6:07 pm
Greta wrote:As Nick noted, being not technological, their own body clocks would be about all they could use.
Interesting article. I think this also illustrates the pitfalls of abstraction and extrapolation.
It think we even observe those pitfalls in here!
But it's sometimes forgotten that when we create abstractions, such as the concept of time, from observed phenomena, such as the concept of (natural) clocks, it is not a logical certainty that this concept will stay consistent and meaningful beyond the sensations from which they grew.
-Nicely put. I had the same discussion about the concept of "information". People don't understand that we as intelligent agents "treat" facts about nature as "information". i.e. DNA Chemicals in a molecule do not convey information like one mind does to an other. I guess our language is primitive and doesn't make distinctions between natural causation and agency.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by Sy Borg »

Steve3007 wrote: January 13th, 2020, 6:07 pm
Greta wrote:As Nick noted, being not technological, their own body clocks would be about all they could use.
Yes, and I suppose those body clocks would be a distant, imprecise echo of the celestial clocks that they left behind, in the presence of which they evolved. As ours are.
Good point! After all, genetics is just the conditioning of ancestors - a reflection of past environments. In time (ha!), though, those rhythms might fade. For instance, sleeping for extended periods might not be a good idea if the "Morlocks" of the above thought experiment were cannibals that attacked those who let their guard down. Sleep would then become opportunistic and randomised, wiping out their conditioned rhythms. Maybe then they would base time on eating or excreting, hunger and the need to go? (in such a dangerous place, toileting could be a significant event, as it is with sloths: https://www.sciencealert.com/this-is-th ... -they-poop

Steve3007 wrote: January 13th, 2020, 6:07 pmInteresting article. I think this [the Amazonian tribe] also illustrates the pitfalls of abstraction and extrapolation. They're essential tools for helping us make predictions beyond our immediate, everyday experience. But it's sometimes forgotten that when we create abstractions, such as the concept of time, from observed phenomena, such as the concept of (natural) clocks, it is not a logical certainty that this concept will stay consistent and meaningful beyond the sensations from which they grew. It is only the process of Induction that makes us think that they will. In terms of time, the ultimate extrapolation is the Newtonian concept of a single, universal Time - the notion that there are the measurements made by clocks and that there is somehow some "real" time that exists independently of all those clocks - a Platonic Form of Time. This appears not to be the case.

So maybe that tribe has a point.
It was interesting that they adopted new names at different times in their lives. We are not the child or teen that we once were. I am not the young adult that I was. So taking on new names to reflect the changes makes sense.

I first heard about the tribe from a (I think) Brian Cox documentary. He was using plates to for some of the tribesmen to show him how they conceptualise time. I can't remember the details, but they ended up placing the plates in a circle. That could be why they apparently have no trouble adapting their thoughts to handle time-related concepts in the Portuguese language. Their concepts are different to ours but they still observed the rhythmic nature of life.

Steve3007 wrote: January 13th, 2020, 6:07 pm
A binary star system, no moons, multiple moons and differing rotation rates would throw our everyday assumptions about time out the window.
Yes, a relatively complex orbit might mean that a species similar to ours might take longer to reach the stage of Kepler and Newton because the orbital maths would be more complicated. Assuming, of course, they could evolve at all.
True. Binary systems are seemingly not good for life. While I'm dubious that red dwarfs at this stage of the universe are capable of evolving complex life, let's say an advanced species sets up a base on a tidally locked, moonless planet around a red dwarf. Day and night would be a matter of location rather than time. An interesting quote as to how animals without a light/dark cycle operate:
Mexican blind cave fish have two forms - a surface-dwelling sighted form that lives outside, and a blind cave form that lives in perpetual darkness. What's interesting is that the blind form has completely shut down it's circadian rhythm, and therefore saves about 30% more energy by default, compared to its sighted form which 'gears up' every day in response to daytime.

In the absence of light, the blind fish therefore don't have a 24-hour cycle and don't need to 'tell' whether it's day or night. Living in perpetual darkness, it's also disadvantageous to conform to a day-night sleep cycle anyway. Given food is scarce, it makes sense to try and remain awake and alert as much as possible - just in case a tasty morsel floats by. They therefore rarely sleep, and do so only in very short bursts, throughout a 24 hour period.
https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/com ... _sleep_if/
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

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Greta wrote:I first heard about the tribe from a (I think) Brian Cox documentary. He was using plates to for some of the tribesmen to show him how they conceptualise time. I can't remember the details, but they ended up placing the plates in a circle. That could be why they apparently have no trouble adapting their thoughts to handle time-related concepts in the Portuguese language. Their concepts are different to ours but they still observed the rhythmic nature of life.
An interesting quote from the article about the Amondawa tribe:

"What we don't find is a notion of time as being independent of the events which are occuring; they don't have a notion of time which is something the events occur in."

A very sensible and practical attitude to the concept of time. Its seems clear that they agree that time is only meaningful as the thing that is measured by (all kinds of) clocks. In their case, the "clocks" are the significant events of their lives. I think we all do essentially the same thing, but in a more formal way. And then, at some point, we make the mental leap to affording time a separate status from the ways in which it is marked, and we reify it. As the quote above puts it, we develop the "notion of time which is something the events occur in" - a sort of medium, a bit like the luminiferous aether that 19th Century physicists speculated to be the medium in which light propagates. And the end result is the likes of RJG reifying the mathematical concept of dimension and imagining it to be some kind of canvas on which the Universe is painted.

I guess it's at least since Newton and Descartes that we've had this mental image of Cartesian coordinates for space and time somehow pre-existing the objects whose positions and movements they were created to quantify.
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by Steve3007 »

Greta wrote:If your "world" is small enough, you can discard abstract concepts.
And it's interesting to see how when our "world" reaches a certain size we reify those abstract concepts - tell ourselves that they pre-exist the things that we created them to describe.
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by creation »

Steve3007 wrote: January 13th, 2020, 1:10 pm
Steve3007 wrote:He'll jump on this wording, I suspect.
creation wrote:How exactly can you make a 5 year trip in 3 years?

Right predicted reaction. Wrong poster. Close, but no cigar, I guess.
And the very reason I "jumped" on this wording, with your quote included, was to make you feel better.

Also, right predicted reaction as well. You would not answer the actual question.
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by creation »

NickGaspar wrote: January 13th, 2020, 1:16 pm
creation wrote: January 13th, 2020, 1:05 pm

So, human beings put their relative perspective onto this, and take measurements of some frequency?

But what is the actual 'process', itself, which you say is "time"?

A 'frequency' is a 'frequency' or are you saying that 'frequency' is 'time', itself?



'We' are not talking about anything. I asked you a question. 'You' are trying your hardest to answer it.

But where and what is the actual ticking 'process', itself, of atoms and molecules, which is what you call "time"?

Obviously the phrase "biological clock" is just some made up term to describe some thing, unless of course you can pinpoint where is and what this "biological clock" is exactly?

The heart pumps blood and this is a process, so is the "ticking" process of the human heart "time" also?




Is this absolutely true and correct? Or, just what is said to happen?

Just expressing what is said to happen and which is just the current knowledge, to you, is very different from proposing what does actually happen.



What are "natural clocks"?

And, how does motion supposedly affect these"natural clocks"?
Are we doing that again?
Yes we are.

I ask you clarifying questions. You, once again, prove you are incapable to answer.

Why is it the ones who insist the predictions of relativity have already been verified correct are the same ones who are incapable of answering my questions? Does the obvious fact that if they did answer my questions honestly, then that would show that what they believe is correct is not correct at all?
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by creation »

Terrapin Station wrote: January 13th, 2020, 1:38 pm
creation wrote: January 13th, 2020, 11:55 am
I don't follow. Everything we know is just a "concept"!
Which is a crazy thing you'd think because?
I did not write that.

And I cannot find an edit button in this forum.
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

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creation wrote: January 14th, 2020, 6:16 am
NickGaspar wrote: January 13th, 2020, 1:16 pm

Are we doing that again?
Yes we are.

I ask you clarifying questions. You, once again, prove you are incapable to answer.

Why is it the ones who insist the predictions of relativity have already been verified correct are the same ones who are incapable of answering my questions? Does the obvious fact that if they did answer my questions honestly, then that would show that what they believe is correct is not correct at all?
No.
I think it is because they are just fed up with your silly questions.
Relativity is well established. Next time you use your sat-nav, you unknowingly rely on Einstein's theory.
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by creation »

RJG wrote: January 13th, 2020, 1:47 pm
creation wrote:So, what is 'Time' exactly that without 'It' there could be no motion, period?
Time is a dimension; it is 'place' (spatial substrate) where motion can happen.
This might make sense to you. But saying Time is a dimension does not make sense to me.

What do you mean by dimension exactly?

RJG wrote: January 13th, 2020, 1:47 pm
creation wrote:Do you see 'Time' as something that causes motion?
No. Time does not "cause" motion, any more than Space causes matter. Motion is caused by interacting matter. Time is just the substrate; i.e. the place where motion occurs.
So, time, the dimension, is the place where motion occurs. But, if motion is caused by interacting matter, then the place where motion, or interacting matter, occurs is just the Universe, Itself, correct? Or, is there some other place that you are talking about?
RJG wrote: January 13th, 2020, 1:47 pm
creator wrote:What exactly do you mean by motion is a function of Time?
I mean Motion is only possible because of Time in the same respect that Matter is only possible because of Space.
I am still not understanding where nor what this dimension is, which is Time, and which motion is not possible without.

RJG wrote: January 13th, 2020, 1:47 pm
creator wrote:Do you see motion being the natural activity of Time? Or, maybe the purpose of Time?
No. Time is not an "activity". Time is just a spatial Dimension; a 'place' for activity (i.e. the interaction of matter) to happen.
Well the Universe, Itself, is a place, or a spatial dimension, for the interaction of matter to happen, correct?
RJG wrote: January 13th, 2020, 1:47 pm Look at it this way, without the 3 dimensions of space there would be no 'where'; no 'place' for matter to exist. And without Time (the 4th dimension) there would be no 'where'; no 'place' for matter to interact (move/motion).
But, to me, space is literally the place where matter is able to move and interact. Because of space, matter is able to freely move.

RJG wrote: January 13th, 2020, 1:47 pm
creation wrote:Space', which is just the distance between objects or matter, is what allows or enables physical motion. ...Space is what allows matter to move.
Not so. Space (3D Space) only allows the existence of matter. Spacetime (4D Space) allows motion of matter (of 3D objects).
To me matter can exist without space.

But matter cannot move and interact without space.

Matter moving, and interacting, is just motion, or change.

The measuring of the duration of this change is just what the word 'time' describes.

So, we just see things differently. I cannot yet see where this "other" place or dimension is where you say is what time is.
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Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

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creation wrote: January 14th, 2020, 6:16 am
NickGaspar wrote: January 13th, 2020, 1:16 pm

Are we doing that again?
Yes we are.

I ask you clarifying questions. You, once again, prove you are incapable to answer.

Why is it the ones who insist the predictions of relativity have already been verified correct are the same ones who are incapable of answering my questions? Does the obvious fact that if they did answer my questions honestly, then that would show that what they believe is correct is not correct at all?
Even if I think you are on purpose being dishonest here, I will give you an example, for the sake of by standers.

Here is a question for you and I will need an answer from you.(its a classical example btw).

So. When did you stop beating your wife?

Again I will need your answer on that.
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