Tamminen wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 9:12 am
creation wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 5:39 am
I asked HOW can you make a 5 year trip in 3 years? Either you can explain HOW, or you cannot.
I did not mean to be arrogant, I just thought that I cannot explain it better than I already did.
But I try. So here is the original proof:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16368&start=525#p345413
I did respond to that post.
For me that is not proof.
Tamminen wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 9:12 amSo a rocket takes off from the Earth and travels to a planet 4 light years from the Earth with the speed of 80% of light speed. You are the traveler in the rocket. At the moment the rocket starts its journey you launch a photon out into space
horizontally, not in the direction of the journey.
What happens if I "launch" a photon out into space in the exact same direction of the journey?
Tamminen wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 9:12 am
Nothing tells you that you move,
Except for the rumbling of the rocket, and when I look out the window.
Tamminen wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 9:12 amso the photon travels in your reference frame, in the same way that it would travel if you had launced it on the ground.
I do not understand this at all.
How is the photon traveling in my reference frame, when I am travelling at 80% the speed of the photon, and we are also going in different directions?
And, what has launching the photon on the ground have some bearing on it would travel in the same way? The same way to what exactly?
Where was the photon launched if it is not on the ground the first time?
Tamminen wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 9:12 amThis is the general classical principle of relativity.
Does everyone here at least agree that this is the "general classical principle of relativity"? If not, then we are stuck again. But, if yes, then great. We are all in agreement, including me, after my clarifying questions above are resolved first.
Tamminen wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 9:12 amNow let us say that it takes 3 years from the photon to travel a distance of 3 light years during your trip to the planet. This is the time your trip takes according to your clocks in the rocket, and this is also how much older you are when you arrive on the planet.
This is what is said, and this is what I have contention with.
If I am ever allowed to ask questions, which someone wants to answer, then they might clarify how this could actually take place. But until then I do not understand this at all, and if I cannot ask questions for clarification, I may never will understand. Everything I have read or heard to me does not make sense, and not just because it initially seem counter intuitive, but because of other reasons.
Also, when you say " 'from' the photon to travel ..." do you mean " 'for' the photon to travel ..."?
I do not recall now but I think it was you who used the "from" word before, and if it was, then doing it once I can let go but if it is twice, then it is just a two time typo, or you actually mean it that way, and if you do, then what do you actually mean? What does "it takes 3 years from the photon to travel a distance of 3 light years?
See, the very reason why I am so slow to learn and understand what all of you people here appear to know and understand already might be because I do not understand what these terms and phrases actually mean.
Also, the second sentence seems to completely and utterly contradict the first sentence.
1. I can fully understand and fully accept:
that it takes 3 years 'for' the photon to travel a distance of 3 light years, (during your trip to the planet).
I am not sure why the part in brackets was added or needed but if it just because it is in relation to "launching" a photon at the same time I left for my travels, then that is understandable.
However,
2. How does the first sentence work in relation with this second sentence here:
This is the time your trip takes according to your clocks in the rocket, and this is also how much older you are when you arrive on the planet.
a) What is the time my trip takes?
b) How is that time my trip takes, in accordance to my clocks in the rocket?
c) And how much older am I when I arrive on the planet?
Are you saying I travel 3 years when I arrive at the planet and I am 3 years older? Or, what?
I really have absolutely NO idea what you are saying and meaning here.
Tamminen wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 9:12 am
But when your twin brother on Earth measures the trip of the same photon, he must take into account that the rocket is 4 light years away from the Earth now at the end of the trip.
Why 'MUST' my brother take into account that the rocket has arrived at the planet?
If I was my brother on earth and I measure the trip then the rocket would be 80% of 3 light years away with 2 more years to travel. But I am not on the earth because you said I am in the rocket, and from my calculations I am 80% of 3 light years away from earth, with 2 more years to go to my destination. If and when I put myself in my brother's perspective (or reference frame, or reference point) on earth also, I still observe that the rocket is 80% of 3 light years away from earth, with 2 more years to destination.
When I reach destination, and if I and my brother have powerful enough telescopes, then I and my brother could also verify how long the trip actually took.
That is when I land and look back at earth it would look like I only just left a few seconds ago, and to my brother he would have to wait another 5 more years (or 10 years from when I left) to see me land on the planet. But as I say, I do observe and see things differently than most people do.
What I really cannot understand here is HOW could I, in the rocket, have traveled further than light could have in the exact same time? But this will all depend on how long you say my trip took.
When this is explained to me logically and reasonably, then I will start seeing and understanding, hopefully, what it is that you and others observe and see here.
Tamminen wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 9:12 am
But the speed of light is the same in both reference frames. The only logically possible conclusion is that the trip has taken a much longer time measured with a clock in the reference frame of the Earth, in this case 5 years. This is the hypotenuse of the triangle.
But this is certainly NOT the logical possible conclusion that I arrive at.
If the only "logically possible conclusion", to you, is if he trip has taken a much 'longer' time measured with a clock in the reference from of the earth, in this case 5 years, then is the '5 years' the longer time, or the measured with a clock in earth's frame of reference time?
If the 5 years is the longer time, then what is the earth's measured time? Or, if the earth's measured time is the 5 years, then what is the longer time?
What does my clock read?
Tamminen wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 9:12 am
Note that 'year' here is not defined by the Earth revolving around the Sun, but as so and so many seconds.
Oh okay.
But how many of these so and so many seconds are there in one of those 'years' that you are referring to here?
Tamminen wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 9:12 am
I think this is all I can say about this.
Okay, fair enough.
But if I was to provide a examples or a thought experiment not to much different to the above, then would anyone like to question, (and/or challenge), me on what I write, like I have just here?