God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Post Reply
gad-fly
Posts: 1133
Joined: October 23rd, 2019, 4:48 pm

God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by gad-fly »

This post is parallel to the preceding one asking: Will God be dead? But I am confusing you, since the attention I am seeking from you is really one-sided: Have we created God? If so, are we the only primate in the animal kingdom with this creative thinking? Why should we bother?

Perhaps we are all prisoners of our own devise, as sung in “Hotel California”. We can check out any time, but we can never leave. We are welcomed to this lovely place, and indeed it is such a lovely place. This begs the last question: We may sing about it, but why would we ask?
User avatar
Mark_Lee
Posts: 24
Joined: November 8th, 2017, 9:42 pm

Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by Mark_Lee »

As a devout Christian, I believe God created Man. And I refuse to believe that we are just another animal. I wouldn't go so far as to ascribe to the philosophical notion that lesser beings are unconscious zombies, but I do think we humans are of a different ilk.

God came to us with the promise of a better place. Animals were never granted that honor because they are lesser creatures. Stronger and faster for sure, but not more superior.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14997
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by Sy Borg »

Mark_Lee wrote: February 11th, 2020, 8:37 pmAs a devout Christian, I believe God created Man. And I refuse to believe that we are just another animal.
Ha! My Catholic mother used the same preface ... "I refuse to believe", as if emotion mattered in the slightest. For Mum, the refusal was to believe that humans evolved from apes. Like the Elephant Man, she would entreat, "I am not an animal!".

But of course, we all are animals. Each of us, like any other animal, a small piece of the planet Earth, and we will return to it.

We are not only animals, but we are very much like other animals, the difference being about 1% genetically, but that 1% is important in terms of empowerment. Unlike other animal species, Homo sapiens has an extra ability.

Like other dominant species, our success comes from having this an extra capacity. Trilobites dominated the world because they were the first animals to enjoy good, clear vision. Dinosaurs were the first to employ terrifying power. Humans are the first species to be able to mentally project the future and recall the past. Mentally, humans are more temporally free, less locked into the moment (or at least we are after a few years - until then, our sentience is less than that of adults of other intelligent species, despite our claims to divinity from conception).

Humans, like other animals (and plants, fungi and bacteria) were created by the Sun, and then the Earth. The Sun was created by larger stars and, ultimately, you can be sure that somewhere in our past has been significant black hole activity.

There is certainly no reason to discard thousands of years of worldwide learning just to adhere to a Middle Eastern myth of two thousand years ago, only brought to popularity by Constantine. Why not a Chinese creed of a thousand years ago? Or an African myth of four thousand years ago? Do we really believe that the Middle East - godforsaken disaster zone that it is - is the holy land from which the only truth emanated? I see the Abrahamic creeds as far less sophisticated and grounded than the ideas of Buddhists and Taoists in the Far East.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by Steve3007 »

gad-fly wrote:Perhaps we are all prisoners of our own devise, as sung in “Hotel California”.
If you're interested, the philosophy of The Eagles can be explored further by considering the song "Take It Easy" as an interesting twist on Zeno's Paradox.

viewtopic.php?p=325401#p325401
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 6227
Joined: August 23rd, 2016, 3:00 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine
Location: NYC Man

Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by Terrapin Station »

I'll answer this right after I finish figuring out if we created the Cat in the Hat or whether the Cat in the Hat created us.
gad-fly
Posts: 1133
Joined: October 23rd, 2019, 4:48 pm

Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by gad-fly »

Steve3007 wrote: February 12th, 2020, 3:50 am
gad-fly wrote:Perhaps we are all prisoners of our own devise, as sung in “Hotel California”.
If you're interested, the philosophy of The Eagles can be explored further by considering the song "Take It Easy" as an interesting twist on Zeno's Paradox.

viewtopic.php?p=325401#p325401
Assume human beings have created God. In Christianity, they would call him The Lord. They become lambs to be guided by the shepherd. They prayed to him for help. Worse, they fall into the trap of original sin from which they cannot have salvation but for Jesus Christ. They have to repent their ways to accord with God' wishes. They must praise the Lord. In this respect, are we not prisoners of our own devise?
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Mark_Lee wrote: February 11th, 2020, 8:37 pm As a devout Christian, I believe God created Man. And I refuse to believe that we are just another animal. I wouldn't go so far as to ascribe to the philosophical notion that lesser beings are unconscious zombies, but I do think we humans are of a different ilk.

God came to us with the promise of a better place. Animals were never granted that honor because they are lesser creatures. Stronger and faster for sure, but not more superior.
Isn't this the attitude that lead humans to believe the world is there for them to use, and not to share with all the other living things who also call this place "home"? 😢
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Greta wrote: February 12th, 2020, 2:46 am I see the Abrahamic creeds as far less sophisticated and grounded than the ideas of Buddhists and Taoists in the Far East.
After being raised by a cult (RC), as you were, I also ended up with Eastern religious philosophies, not adversarial Western ones. When asked, I describe myself as a Gaian Daoist, a philosophical Daoist, informed by hippy, druidic, tree-hugging religious sentiments.

Who has created whom? Neither, I believe. God is an emergent phenomenon, while humans are ... human. Is it necessary that one created the other?
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
User avatar
Mark_Lee
Posts: 24
Joined: November 8th, 2017, 9:42 pm

Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by Mark_Lee »

Pattern-chaser wrote: February 13th, 2020, 12:05 pm
Mark_Lee wrote: February 11th, 2020, 8:37 pm As a devout Christian, I believe God created Man. And I refuse to believe that we are just another animal. I wouldn't go so far as to ascribe to the philosophical notion that lesser beings are unconscious zombies, but I do think we humans are of a different ilk.

God came to us with the promise of a better place. Animals were never granted that honor because they are lesser creatures. Stronger and faster for sure, but not more superior.
Isn't this the attitude that lead humans to believe the world is there for them to use, and not to share with all the other living things who also call this place "home"? 😢
Lesser creatures (animals) are meant for three things and three things only. Number one: to be eaten. Number two: to be kept as pets. Number three: to serve us for our benefit, such as a horse to be ridden or a water buffalo for farming. There's also the case of blood leeches for medicinal usage. Dung beetles count too with whatever they do that's beneficial.

I believe that as long as we humans are not the source of torment for animals, we are free to eat them and subdue them. I need to make it clear to everyone that we are the premier beneficiaries of this planet. Our pets are not our children and shouldn't be treated as such.

And like I said, though I do not ascribe to the idea that animals are consciousless zombies, I do think they are LESSER CREATURES.
gad-fly
Posts: 1133
Joined: October 23rd, 2019, 4:48 pm

Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by gad-fly »

Greta wrote: February 12th, 2020, 2:46 am I see the Abrahamic creeds as far less sophisticated and grounded than the ideas of Buddhists and Taoists in the Far East.
The Eastern religions, whether more sophisticated or not, are grounded differently. There is no God in the context of being a creator or Almightly. Nirvana in Buddhism and Hinduism is absolute blessedness or adsorption into Brahman by one's own dedication, not by the mercy of the savior. You want to reach the other shore? It depends on how hard you swim. Some would call Buddhism a crypto religion, or a non-religion.

I have an idea to the question that I have posted. God creates us, and we create God. It is like chicken and egg. Happy ending, and beginning too?
User avatar
Papus79
Posts: 1798
Joined: February 19th, 2017, 6:59 pm

Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by Papus79 »

I offered this in a different thread but - I don't think it matters and I don't think it's available knowledge.

What we have around us are various strong forms of theism, which in the sense of the Abrahamic traditions these are really politics first - and that shows with how intertwined or similar political and formal religious behavior and identity tend to be. While I do find people like John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Boehme, Mansur Al Halaj, etc. interesting in the scope and style of their experiences (the Golden Dawn and A.'.A.'. ran full speed at the 'Knowledge and Conversation' model of personal inner-cosmology) are a very different thing than what most common Christians, Muslims, and Jews that I've met tend to believe. If anything this tends to progressively walk the Abrahamic symbol sets back toward something like a Daoist, Hindu, or Buddhist framework.

The key thing - if you're mystically inclined your encounters will be with yourself and they'll be built upon your relationship with yourself (Jung did a good job of unpacking this and I found John Vervaeke's conversations with Anderson Todd worth recommending for that). As for answers from the totality of the universe - good luck, if it actually does happen you may be the first person in history, maybe even the last, and that's also completely agnostic as to whether such attention wouldn't plant a super massive black hole where our solar system used to be.
Humbly watching Youtube in Universe 25. - Me
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14997
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by Sy Borg »

gad-fly wrote: February 13th, 2020, 2:25 pm
Greta wrote: February 12th, 2020, 2:46 am I see the Abrahamic creeds as far less sophisticated and grounded than the ideas of Buddhists and Taoists in the Far East.
The Eastern religions, whether more sophisticated or not, are grounded differently. There is no God in the context of being a creator or Almightly. Nirvana in Buddhism and Hinduism is absolute blessedness or adsorption into Brahman by one's own dedication, not by the mercy of the savior. You want to reach the other shore? It depends on how hard you swim. Some would call Buddhism a crypto religion, or a non-religion.

I have an idea to the question that I have posted. God creates us, and we create God. It is like chicken and egg. Happy ending, and beginning too?
Oh, just about anything can be God. Love. Compassion. Justice. Consciousness. The universe. You name it. Heck, some are even claiming that Trump is God's vessel. You might as well add your latest idea to the list, which is not new either. As George Carlin et all have said, "We created god in our own image and likeness."

What I like about the far east religions is their interest in exploring the psyche and reporting their results, rather than relying only on fixed doctrines.

Not sure how happy the ending will be and, alas, if I do find out I won't be able to let you know.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14997
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by Sy Borg »

Papus79 wrote: February 13th, 2020, 11:19 pmThe key thing - if you're mystically inclined your encounters will be with yourself and they'll be built upon your relationship with yourself (Jung did a good job of unpacking this and I found John Vervaeke's conversations with Anderson Todd worth recommending for that). As for answers from the totality of the universe - good luck, if it actually does happen you may be the first person in history, maybe even the last, and that's also completely agnostic as to whether such attention wouldn't plant a super massive black hole where our solar system used to be.
Much of that comes down to individual temperament. As far as I can tell, the idea of life is to get your "stuff" together. Your stuff. We all have different aptitudes, preferences, strengths and frailties and we need to juggle these (relatively) unique traits without guidance. Others can only tell you how to be someone else.

So, for introverts, retreat can aid actualisation. Extroverts, though, actualise through the theatres of sociality and politics. Those who love science might grow by studying something very specific, while philosophers tend to need a broad field in which to graze.
User avatar
h_k_s
Posts: 1243
Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by h_k_s »

gad-fly wrote: February 11th, 2020, 3:46 pm This post is parallel to the preceding one asking: Will God be dead? But I am confusing you, since the attention I am seeking from you is really one-sided: Have we created God? If so, are we the only primate in the animal kingdom with this creative thinking? Why should we bother?

Perhaps we are all prisoners of our own devise, as sung in “Hotel California”. We can check out any time, but we can never leave. We are welcomed to this lovely place, and indeed it is such a lovely place. This begs the last question: We may sing about it, but why would we ask?
Hotel California was a song by the Eagles about a motorcyclist who falls asleep at the wheel and dies and goes to Hell.
User avatar
h_k_s
Posts: 1243
Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by h_k_s »

Mark_Lee wrote: February 11th, 2020, 8:37 pm As a devout Christian, I believe God created Man. And I refuse to believe that we are just another animal. I wouldn't go so far as to ascribe to the philosophical notion that lesser beings are unconscious zombies, but I do think we humans are of a different ilk.

God came to us with the promise of a better place. Animals were never granted that honor because they are lesser creatures. Stronger and faster for sure, but not more superior.
I believe that animals are just as human as humans are. Especially cats.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Religion, Theism and Mythology”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021