God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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creation
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Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by creation »

Pattern-chaser wrote: March 22nd, 2020, 9:25 am
creation wrote: March 22nd, 2020, 3:26 am Who is dismissing 'this' as nonsense?
And, what exactly is 'this', which you say someone is dismissing as nonsense?
creation wrote: March 21st, 2020, 12:45 pm To show how to make sense of what has been hitherto nonsensical for thousands of years now.
You are dismissing 'this' as nonsense, it seems. See above. And 'this' refers to that which "has been hitherto nonsensical for thousands of years now", as far as I can tell. That you ask such questions indicates that any constructive benefit to this conversation is over, so I will withdraw. Thanks.
What is really over is your ability to understand what I am saying, and also to reason out what you have previously assumed and/or believed is true.

I said, I am just showing how the word God can be used in a way that is possible and which could be falsified, or verified True, Right, and Correct scientifically, logically, and reasonably.

You asked, Why?

I answered, To show how to make sense of what has been hitherto nonsensical for thousands of years now.

And also to answer the question asked in this thread's title.


You still have NOT clarified what 'this' is exactly yet.

Contrary to your belief, I am NOT dismissing absolutely anything as nonsense.

And, I have just explained definitions for the word 'God', which when looked into fully works in perfectly with everything else, and which can either be falsified, or verified as being True, Right, and Correct through scientific processes and/or in a logically and reasoned way.

Are you suggesting that the definition/s for the word 'God' for last thousand or so years has made sense to human beings on a whole, hitherto when this is written?
creation
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Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by creation »

gad-fly wrote: March 22nd, 2020, 9:38 am
creation wrote: March 22nd, 2020, 3:47 am



God is constantly-evolving.

These responses may create more questions than answers, but ask away, all questions can and will be answered.
According to Wikipedia as quoted by Belindi, can I take your description of God as theism, deism, pantheism, or some combination?
No you can NOT take my description of God as any of them, nor any combination of them.

My definitions have absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with any 'isms' at all, and my definitions are NOT aligned to any previous human made 'isms', groups, religions, ideologies, beliefs, nor assumptions as well.

Also, my definitions are NOT aligned with nor to any ONE source of human made knowledge, but, in saying this one, my definitions do not digress too far away from definitions available in the current dictionaries of this day and age when this is written.

My definitions are just my views from what I have observed, which from my perspective appear to be what is true and right, but could and may well be false and wrong.
creation
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Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by creation »

gater wrote: March 22nd, 2020, 8:48 pm
gad-fly wrote: March 21st, 2020, 11:03 pm

Two questions please:
1. Is God = The universe? One with necessary two different names.
2. Is God constant, or is it evolving like the universe?
1 No, God is not the Universe. God is the concept that man made to explain the Universe.
'God' is not a 'concept'. 'God' is just a human made word. The concept of 'God' is whatever a human being wants that "concept" to be.

Also, if God is the concept that man made to explain the Universe, then how exactly does saying the one and only word 'God' supposedly "explain the Universe", to you?
gater wrote: March 22nd, 2020, 8:48 pm 2 The Universe does not evolve, it has always been infinite time and space.
Of course the Universe IS infinite and eternal, always HERE and NOW.
gater wrote: March 22nd, 2020, 8:48 pm Forming galaxies, and everything in them, forever.
Forming galaxies, and every thing else, is the Universe, Itself, just changing, or evolving, in shape and form.

This one and only Universe is always changing and evolving, and forming Itself.
gater wrote: March 22nd, 2020, 8:48 pm Time is the only constant in the Universe, that I know of.
How exactly is 'time' constant, to you?

Also, is not 'change', itself, constant in the Universe as well, to you?
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Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by Belindi »

Gater wrote:
1 No, God is not the Universe. God is the concept that man made to explain the Universe.
2 The Universe does not evolve, it has always been infinite time and space. Forming galaxies, and everything in them, forever. Time is the only constant in the Universe, that I know of.
Is the concept that man made to explain the Universe absolutely true independently of man's thought?

When you claim "The Universe does not evolve" do you mean there are unchanging laws of nature?

NB 'to evolve' is the same as 'to change'.
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Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

creation wrote: March 22nd, 2020, 10:41 pm You still have NOT clarified what 'this' is exactly yet.
Farther back in our discussion, you separated my two sentences, and demanded to know what 'this' was. If you'd left them together, you wouldn't've lost the link of sense between them. Look:
Pattern-chaser wrote: March 21st, 2020, 1:09 pm Many millions of humans have found God to be a worthwhile concept, over many centuries. Instead of dismissing this as nonsense, shouldn't we, as philosophers, wonder why?
Now do you understand?


But you're ranting now, telling all other contributors how they just don't understand the wisdom of what you're saying. That may be so, but I see no possibility of further learning or interest here, so I will withdraw, as I said. Thanks.
Pattern-chaser

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creation
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Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by creation »

Pattern-chaser wrote: March 23rd, 2020, 7:39 am
creation wrote: March 22nd, 2020, 10:41 pm You still have NOT clarified what 'this' is exactly yet.
Farther back in our discussion, you separated my two sentences, and demanded to know what 'this' was. If you'd left them together, you wouldn't've lost the link of sense between them.
But I did not know what the word 'this' was referring to exactly, even when I left your two sentences together when I read them together. That is why I asked the clarifying question.

This not knowing for sure what your words were referring to exactly is why I also asked all the other clarifying questions I asked you, which, by the way, you have not clarified.
Pattern-chaser wrote: March 23rd, 2020, 7:39 am Look:
Pattern-chaser wrote: March 21st, 2020, 1:09 pm Many millions of humans have found God to be a worthwhile concept, over many centuries. Instead of dismissing this as nonsense, shouldn't we, as philosophers, wonder why?
Now do you understand?
What is 'it' that I am supposedly "dismissing as nonsense"?

I do NOT dismiss many millions of human have found God to be a worthwhile concept at all.

I ALREADY KNOW why they found God to be a worthwhile concept. Those millions have been led astray with misconstrued and misleading concepts.

I am also still awaiting for you to inform me of what the concept of God was "worthwhile" for 'what' exactly.

Does any of your many different "concepts of God" answer the question of this topic in any logical and reasonable way, like my concept does?

Also, "millions of humans" is relatively next to nothing compared to 100 billion humans.

I have also asked you does that concept of God, which is supposedly "worthwhile" for a relatively few, make sense to human beings on a whole?

If no, then just maybe my concept/definition of God might make sense to ALL human beings, or humanity? We will have to wait and see.

But if your answer is yes, then what is that concept of God that makes sense to ALL human beings, or humanity?
Pattern-chaser wrote: March 23rd, 2020, 7:39 am But you're ranting now, telling all other contributors how they just don't understand the wisdom of what you're saying.
Have I actually told ALL other contributors how they just do not understand the wisdom of what I am saying?

Or, is this what you are perceiving and/or just trying to perceive to others that I am telling all other contributors this?

Also, you can twist what I say around, and then call 'your distorted version' "my ranting", but if looked at fully, what thee actual Truth can be clearly seen.
Pattern-chaser wrote: March 23rd, 2020, 7:39 am That may be so, but I see no possibility of further learning or interest here, so I will withdraw, as I said. Thanks.
At least you are being more honest now. If you see NO possibility of further learning for you and/or you have NO interest here, then that is perfectly fine, and perfectly understandable. But, 'trying to' blame me, like you did last time above, for you withdrawing from this discussion is just a 'cop out' on your part.
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Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by gater »

Belindi wrote: March 23rd, 2020, 5:06 am Gater wrote:
1 No, God is not the Universe. God is the concept that man made to explain the Universe.
2 The Universe does not evolve, it has always been infinite time and space. Forming galaxies, and everything in them, forever. Time is the only constant in the Universe, that I know of.
Is the concept that man made to explain the Universe absolutely true independently of man's thought?

When you claim "The Universe does not evolve" do you mean there are unchanging laws of nature?

NB 'to evolve' is the same as 'to change'.
Let me restate this - 1 God is the concept that early man made to explain the Universe, and everything in the Universe. God is attributed with control over life and death, heaven and hell, an eternal, all powerful being. God ONLY exists in the minds of men.
2 The Universe does not evolve, just as the laws of physics do not evolve. Many things in the Universe evolve, but the Universe has always been here, it did not develope into what it is today.
Science claims the speed of light is a constant, calling it C - but light is affected by gravity, so it's not a true constant. Time is a constant, nothing affects time, it has been passing at a constant rate forever.
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Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by Belindi »

Gater wrote:
Let me restate this - 1 God is the concept that early man made to explain the Universe, and everything in the Universe. God is attributed with control over life and death, heaven and hell, an eternal, all powerful being. God ONLY exists in the minds of men.
2 The Universe does not evolve, just as the laws of physics do not evolve. Many things in the Universe evolve, but the Universe has always been here, it did not develope into what it is today.
Science claims the speed of light is a constant, calling it C - but light is affected by gravity, so it's not a true constant. Time is a constant, nothing affects time, it has been passing at a constant rate forever.
I see you claim God is mind-dependent.

How can you claim the Universe as a whole is not also mind dependent? Why do you claim the laws of physics do not evolve?
creation
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Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by creation »

gater wrote: March 23rd, 2020, 1:56 pm
Belindi wrote: March 23rd, 2020, 5:06 am Gater wrote:



Is the concept that man made to explain the Universe absolutely true independently of man's thought?

When you claim "The Universe does not evolve" do you mean there are unchanging laws of nature?

NB 'to evolve' is the same as 'to change'.
Let me restate this - 1 God is the concept that early man made to explain the Universe, and everything in the Universe. God is attributed with control over life and death, heaven and hell, an eternal, all powerful being. God ONLY exists in the minds of men.
LOL if only you knew.

Anyway, is what you say here the absolute irrefutable Truth of things, or just your view of things?
gater wrote: March 23rd, 2020, 1:56 pm 2 The Universe does not evolve, just as the laws of physics do not evolve. Many things in the Universe evolve, but the Universe has always been here, it did not develope into what it is today.
Really?

So, to you the Universe is fixed and unchangeable, correct?

If yes, then how could this possibly be true when absolutely every thing is changing, and thus evolving? Or do you know of some thing that does not change?

By the way, of course the Universe has always been existing, but how from this fact does it then supposedly follow that the Universe did not develop into what It is today?

The Universe is obviously in a different shape and form today than It was in yesterday, so the Universe must of developed into what It is today.
gater wrote: March 23rd, 2020, 1:56 pm Science claims the speed of light is a constant, calling it C - but light is affected by gravity, so it's not a true constant. Time is a constant, nothing affects time, it has been passing at a constant rate forever.
This has absolutely nothing at all to do with the previous part.
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Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by gad-fly »

creation wrote: March 22nd, 2020, 10:48 pm
gad-fly wrote: March 22nd, 2020, 9:38 am

According to Wikipedia as quoted by Belindi, can I take your description of God as theism, deism, pantheism, or some combination?
No you can NOT take my description of God as any of them, nor any combination of them.

My definitions have absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with any 'isms' at all, and my definitions are NOT aligned to any previous human made 'isms', groups, religions, ideologies, beliefs, nor assumptions as well.

Also, my definitions are NOT aligned with nor to any ONE source of human made knowledge, but, in saying this one, my definitions do not digress too far away from definitions available in the current dictionaries of this day and age when this is written.

My definitions are just my views from what I have observed, which from my perspective appear to be what is true and right, but could and may well be false and wrong.
I take you to mean that God, as the universe, is steadily evolving rather than constantly evolving, since dictionary defines constant as "something that is permanent or not changing".

If God is also the Creator, am I right to say that he has created himself?

The next question: Since the universe being God can be benign or malignant, is not God both benign and malignant, like the force of nature which is what he deems fit?
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Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by creation »

gad-fly wrote: March 23rd, 2020, 9:43 pm
creation wrote: March 22nd, 2020, 10:48 pm

No you can NOT take my description of God as any of them, nor any combination of them.

My definitions have absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with any 'isms' at all, and my definitions are NOT aligned to any previous human made 'isms', groups, religions, ideologies, beliefs, nor assumptions as well.

Also, my definitions are NOT aligned with nor to any ONE source of human made knowledge, but, in saying this one, my definitions do not digress too far away from definitions available in the current dictionaries of this day and age when this is written.

My definitions are just my views from what I have observed, which from my perspective appear to be what is true and right, but could and may well be false and wrong.
I take you to mean that God, as the universe, is steadily evolving rather than constantly evolving, since dictionary defines constant as "something that is permanent or not changing".
Have you heard of the saying; "Change is the only constant in Life"? Or, "The Universe is constantly changing"?

The Universe is permanent, or constant, in that It is always changing, eternally.

I say this purposely as a 'paradox', for the very reason of what a 'paradox' is, as it is defined with opposing definitions.

Also, I do not mean God, as the Universe, I mean when the word 'God' is being perceived as thee Creator, then the word 'God', in the physical sense, is just thee physical Universe, Itself.

Now, as for God/the Universe 'steadily' evolving rather than 'constantly' evolving, then I perfectly understand what you are seeing and saying here (and also how and why you are seeing and saying what you are here, by the way. But anyway,) I do not mean God/the Universe is 'steadily' evolving because of some of the definitions some dictionaries have and give to the word 'steadily'. The word 'steadily' implies in a regular or even manner, or, in a controlled and unwavering manner. And, from what I have observed so far the Universe does not exactly evolve in a regular nor an even manner, nor even in a seemingly controlled and unwavering manner. Bangs, for one example, either the big ones or the small ones, are not exactly regular nor even, nor seemingly controlled and unwavering. The Universe, however, to me, is 'constantly' evolving. To me, evolution is just 'change' and this 'change is a constant', and maybe the only constant in Life.
gad-fly wrote: March 23rd, 2020, 9:43 pm If God is also the Creator, am I right to say that he has created himself?
Firstly, God is NOT a "he". The word "he", in relation to the word 'God', only came about just because in the era when human beings were making up and writing down the word 'God', those human beings actually believed that 'man' was more powerful and more superior to 'women', so obviously they could not call the 'thing' that was being defined as the Creator of everything, a "she". Therefore, 'It' became a "he", and sadly and unfortunately this WRONG description and definition still remains in the era when this is written by some people, as can be clearly seen and evidenced.

Secondly, understanding the way the Universe/God actually creates Itself and how this actually happens one just needs to understand how every thing is created. Absolutely every thing is created by at least two things prior coming together. If 'every action causes a reaction' and 'every reaction is just an action itself', then the Universe constantly-evolving is just the one constant reacting process, which is just means the Universe is creating Itself.

The Universe is eternal, so there is NO 'creating' in the sense of a beginning nor of a starting. The Universe is, more correctly, just constantly in 'creation'. For any thing to be created what is needed at least two things prior coming together, or interacting. How the Universe/God is actually being "created" is because of the two things that have always co-existed together. That is; things and no things, something and nothing, or in other words 'matter' and 'space'. Particles of matter and space have always been existing together and interacting together with one another, constantly (or "steadily" if you prefer) creating the Universe the way It IS, NOW.

Through the constant process called 'change', caused by particles of matter constantly coming together, every thing is created, with themselves always or constantly evolving, causing one constantly-always 'reaction' process - called 'Creation', Itself.

Particles of matter have always been in existence, but without a distance between them and around them, then they could not move about and interact with themselves. There space AND matter is how thee Universe/God creates Its Self.

There is far more evidence that can be provided, which back ups, supports, and proves this claim further. That is; if anyone is truly interested in learning more or anew.
gad-fly wrote: March 23rd, 2020, 9:43 pm The next question: Since the universe being God can be benign or malignant, is not God both benign and malignant, like the force of nature which is what he deems fit?
I do not fully understand the question you are asking here.

Why do you say the Universe/God can be benign or malignant?

What do you mean God both benign and malignant?

To me, Nature is another descriptive word for God/the Universe Itself. But the subtle differences would need to be explained fully for this to be fully and correctly understood.

By the way, remember God is not a "he", so there is no "he" things "deeming" any thing to be "fit" or not.

The Universe just evolves, the way It does, with Nature just taking care of Itself, the way It does. There is not some other "thing" outside, beyond, or apart from this one and only Natural Universe, which could be nor is overlooking ALL-OF-THIS and making decisions.

'God' is just a word to help in the explanation of how ALL-OF-THIS can be and is being Created.
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Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by Sy Borg »

Pattern-chaser wrote: March 23rd, 2020, 7:39 am
creation wrote: March 22nd, 2020, 10:41 pm You still have NOT clarified what 'this' is exactly yet.
Farther back in our discussion, you separated my two sentences, and demanded to know what 'this' was. If you'd left them together, you wouldn't've lost the link of sense between them.
Alas, that is the product of the disastrous forum habit of breaking up chunks of text and addressing each one without complete context.

The habit not only produces logically invalid replies, but annoying to those being responded to, and thoroughly unreadable, actively harming the forum. I, and many others, will not bother wading through long context-free tit-for-tats. We want more cohesive prose and less nitpicking of stuff out of context.
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Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by Belindi »

Greta, the above from you worries me a little, as I believe I can sometimes pick out key claims with my mental forceps and address them without a lot of faff and waffle.
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Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by gad-fly »

Greta wrote: March 23rd, 2020, 11:52 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: March 23rd, 2020, 7:39 am

Farther back in our discussion, you separated my two sentences, and demanded to know what 'this' was. If you'd left them together, you wouldn't've lost the link of sense between them.
Alas, that is the product of the disastrous forum habit of breaking up chunks of text and addressing each one without complete context.

The habit not only produces logically invalid replies, but annoying to those being responded to, and thoroughly unreadable, actively harming the forum. I, and many others, will not bother wading through long context-free tit-for-tats. We want more cohesive prose and less nitpicking of stuff out of context.
Good point, Greta. Sentence should not be broken up. Emphasized/focused point can be underlined or in Bold. Wise-guy remark and oxymoron such as 'change is constant' should be avoided. Meaningless statement such as 'time is constant' should not be made. When replying or commenting on a thread, do not depart from the title which should have a clearly defined concern. Start a new thread if necessary.
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Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by Belindi »

Greta , and gadfly, is this not unwieldy considering some people's paragraphs are very long, garrulous, or absent?
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