Jack D Ripper wrote: ↑October 15th, 2020, 11:30 am
Fanman wrote: ↑October 14th, 2020, 5:57 pm
SilverRing,
I think that you make a valid point. In that killing, in essence, is wrong. But dependant upon the circumstances killing may not be viewed as wrong if it is done for a particular, justifiable reason. Such as self-defence, or as you give reference to, the military. I think that our individual sensitivities come into play here, whereby some may not be as offended by killing as others, depending on what we have seen, what has influenced us and our general perceptions of right and wrong, in terms of ethics.
Using human actions as a guide to what God would do does not always work. For example, an omnipotent being can do anything, and it cannot lose a fight that it wants to win.
But there is NO 'want to win', for the One that is omnipotent.
Jack D Ripper wrote: ↑October 15th, 2020, 11:30 am
So such a being does not need to kill in self-defense or defense of anything else. It is purely a matter of how it chooses to react.
And that One NEVER reacts this way.
Jack D Ripper wrote: ↑October 15th, 2020, 11:30 am
Humans use all sorts of questionable means to human ends (some of the ends are not good, but we can set that aside for the moment), but an omnipotent being can effortlessly bring about whatever it wants. So it has no need of using questionable means.
So, there is no more need to discuss this, right?
Jack D Ripper wrote: ↑October 15th, 2020, 11:30 am
When a human surgeon removes an infected appendix, this involves cutting healthy tissue to get to the appendix in order to remove it. The only reason that that is considered acceptable is because there is no other way for humans to do this, and appendicitis is often fatal if the appendix is not removed. (If someone cuts your abdomen like a surgeon does, but does not remove your appendix and does it on the street, they can go to prison for many years for this.) God, however, could deal with this by magically healing the appendix, by removing it without cutting healthy tissue, or, better still, have people born without an appendix.
Well this is a VERY CLEAR SIGN that you have NO IDEA how God, Itself, actually works.
Jack D Ripper wrote: ↑October 15th, 2020, 11:30 am
If you have your appendix removed, you will never miss it. You do not need it at all. In fact, for those who regard humans as being created by God, the appendix appears to be a design flaw, unless God wanted people to occasionally get sick and sometimes be in excruciating pain and sometimes die and give doctors an opportunity to have more work and make more money.
LOL A typical human being perspective of things. Adding 'money' into the equation, as though money has some REAL resemblance to Life, and living.
Jack D Ripper wrote: ↑October 15th, 2020, 11:30 am
Frankly, the appendix is a stupid "design".
But how do you KNOW that getting, so called, "sick" is not part of the design plan? After all it could be how one actually learns and KNOWS
what IS actually 'good', and 'healthy'.
Jack D Ripper wrote: ↑October 15th, 2020, 11:30 am
If, that is, that the human body is designed. There are other "design" problems with the human body, like the blind spot in each eye due to the way that the optic nerve attaches to the eye (this is exploited in some of the "optical illusions" one may encounter); not all eyes in the animal kingdom have this flaw, which indicates that the eye evolved independently in some of the different animals.
And how EXACTLY is this blind spot in each eye of the human body a, so called, "problem with the human body"?
Jack D Ripper wrote: ↑October 15th, 2020, 11:30 am
Or, if God did it, then God must prefer for humans to have flawed eyes (not to mention the fact that most humans eventually need glasses or corrective surgery due to the eye being extremely unreliable).
Is ANY individual body created the EXACT SAME?
In fact is there an animal that is perceived to be not flawed in some way or another?
If you want to compare bodies against bodies, then the human body is probably about one of the most weakest bodies of all.
Jack D Ripper wrote: ↑October 15th, 2020, 11:30 am
Really, the human body is a mess when compared to what an omniscient and omnipotent being could create.
Another typical human being response and perspective of things. That is, looking at, and seeing, only the body for what a human being REALLY IS.
Jack D Ripper wrote: ↑October 15th, 2020, 11:30 am
Looking at the human body as a created thing, it really shows that the designer was either an idiot who did not know what it was doing, or evil, wanting to create unnecessary problems.
And this is a typical response from one who looks at, and sees, only some things, or only looks at, and thus only sees, a part of the picture. But this is the ongoing effect of BELIEFS, themselves.
Jack D Ripper wrote: ↑October 15th, 2020, 11:30 am
Fanman wrote: ↑October 14th, 2020, 5:57 pm
With regards to God, I think that he would, if he existed, have a duty of care towards his creation.
That word "creation" brings up more issues.
Why?
Were you NOT 'created'?
Jack D Ripper wrote: ↑October 15th, 2020, 11:30 am
Why would God create anything?
Well considering that EVERY thing was created, then, obviously, EVERY thing was created by some 'thing'.
Jack D Ripper wrote: ↑October 15th, 2020, 11:30 am
An omnipotent being is self-sufficient.
Yes. And how this Being actually works.
Jack D Ripper wrote: ↑October 15th, 2020, 11:30 am
It can do anything on its own, and does not need the help of others.
Yes you are CORRECT again.
Jack D Ripper wrote: ↑October 15th, 2020, 11:30 am
If it is bored and decides it would be interesting to create a world full of evil for its entertainment, then it is an evil being, creating unnecessary evil.
Or, maybe It created, so called, "evil" for ANOTHER REASON, correct?
OBVIOUSLY a well-reasoned being, like "yourself", would have ALREADY thought of this, correct?
Jack D Ripper wrote: ↑October 15th, 2020, 11:30 am
It would be like me kidnapping you and locking you up in my basement and torturing you, because I am bored and suppose that that will relieve my boredom.
This would be like that ONLY IF your ASSUMPTIONS were true, right, and correct in the first place.
But for your analogy here to be true, right, and correct, your ASSUMPTIONS first about It being "bored", about It "deciding it would be interesting to create a world full of evil", about deciding to do this "for Its entertainment", and that this is an "evil being", "creating unnecessary evil", would have to be true, right, and correct also, which it plainly IS NOT.
All you are doing here is providing the actual distorted thinking you ALREADY HELD, which has led you to the completely FALSE BELIEFS that you STILL MAINTAIN.
Jack D Ripper wrote: ↑October 15th, 2020, 11:30 am
If I were to do that, what would you say of me?
If that human being is bored in this One and ONLY Life, and if that human being thinks or believes that the supposition that doing that to another human being will relieve them of them boredom is true, then I feel VERY, VERY SORRY, for them. They must have had some horrendous past experiences. I wonder if they would like to talk about that, without any fear of judgement, ridicule, nor punishment?
Jack D Ripper wrote: ↑October 15th, 2020, 11:30 am
What do you think most people would say of me?
"That one is a true asshole, and needs to be punished, and/or killed".
Jack D Ripper wrote: ↑October 15th, 2020, 11:30 am
For those who object to the word "torture" in connection with this, aside from the fact that many thousands, if not millions, of people have literally been tortured,
"Been tortured" through what means?
Jack D Ripper wrote: ↑October 15th, 2020, 11:30 am
one needs to consider the total of all of the pain, by all of the things that can feel pain. Do you seriously believe that all of that pain is a good thing?
Fanman wrote: ↑October 14th, 2020, 5:57 pm
Not insomuch as he provides us with a personal shield against the evils of this world, but that he ensures our longevity as a species. ...
Why would you think that? Would it be good to create a species that suffers horribly, but continues to live through many generations?
How, exactly, are you proposing the species - human being - is "suffering" "horribly"?
What are they suffering from, exactly, and what, exactly, is causing this, so called and alleged, "suffering"?
Jack D Ripper wrote: ↑October 15th, 2020, 11:30 am
And what difference does it make to a God if a species lasts 100,000 years and then dies off, or a million years and then dies off? Why have things that die off at all? Why not just create the beings it wants (if it wants any at all) and have them be eternal?
You REALLY have absolutely NO IDEA AT ALL how God actually works, do you?