That may be a growing attitude but it's not mine.
I did not say I resent anything.
That may be a growing attitude but it's not mine.
My concern is that as I start reading the arguments from those who support taxation as it works today, I am struck by the powerful stench of greed emanating from them. I stand shocked by it.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑April 29th, 2021, 10:30 amRequest for clarificationEmpiricist-Bruno wrote: ↑April 29th, 2021, 7:36 amThe Nazis government also forced the contributions of lots of people too.Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 29th, 2021, 2:32 am That seems to be a growing attitude in America, the resentment at being forced to contribute to a society that provides the social and physical structures that made your safe and comfortable life possible. It's easy to take the basics of our lives for granted, to treat them as givens, until they are gone.
Are you comparing the governments of 1930-40 Nazi Germany with the present-day USA? There are some similarities, but the comparison does not lead to any useful conclusions that I can see. Are you suggesting that being taxed by your government is the same as being shipped off to a concentration camp?
A bit confused as to why this follows my post. Bruno, I'm pretty sure you are not saying that my support of tax is related to greed, especially since I paid infinitely more tax this year than Rupert Murdoch did in the last five years.Empiricist-Bruno wrote: ↑April 29th, 2021, 6:44 pmMy concern is that as I start reading the arguments from those who support taxation as it works today, I am struck by the powerful stench of greed emanating from them. I stand shocked by it.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑April 29th, 2021, 10:30 amRequest for clarificationEmpiricist-Bruno wrote: ↑April 29th, 2021, 7:36 amThe Nazis government also forced the contributions of lots of people too.Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 29th, 2021, 2:32 am That seems to be a growing attitude in America, the resentment at being forced to contribute to a society that provides the social and physical structures that made your safe and comfortable life possible. It's easy to take the basics of our lives for granted, to treat them as givens, until they are gone.
Are you comparing the governments of 1930-40 Nazi Germany with the present-day USA? There are some similarities, but the comparison does not lead to any useful conclusions that I can see. Are you suggesting that being taxed by your government is the same as being shipped off to a concentration camp?
The tax system is deeply unjust, but I cannot see any government winning office with the promise of forcing billionaires pay proper amounts of tax. With Murdoch owning more than half our media, and other billionaires owning the rest, any political party promising such a thing would be attacked into political irrelevance.In contrast, Rupert Murdoch’s News Corporation in Australia has paid zero over the five years of available ATO data despite racking up almost $14 billion in total income. That’s despite making $246 million in taxable profits; still a tax rate of zero compared with the statutory corporate tax rate of 30 per cent. Anthony Pratt’s Pratt Consolidated is not much better, posting more than $13 billion in revenue and paying just $18.8 million – a tax rate of just 4.9 per cent on Pratt’s $387 million of taxable income.
Kerry Stokes was much better, his Seven West Media stumping up $209 million over the five years of ATO data, a tax rate of 26 per cent. Stokes has significant investments elsewhere in mining but his personal interests are also grandfathered as he is a pre-1995 billionaire, which is the time of the Keating government when the exemptions were made.
The Packer family, which is not on the list above, has been a significant taxpayer via its shareholding in Crown Resorts. Four years of Tax Office data show Crown paid $435 million. Crown’s accounts show it paid $140 million over the past two years. James Packer sold down the family’s stake by 20 per cent last year to 26 per cent.
Packer is no saint when it comes to paying tax. An investigation for michaelwest.com.au conducted by data expert Kim Prince found the Packer family’s corporate empire has more than 40 tax haven links to the Bahamas, Bermuda and Barbados.
I think here you're starting to explore the issues that were explored a bit more in the two topics on Modern Monetary Theory, and the resistance to the simplistic analogies between national economies and household budgets that politicians often make (usually when trying to justify cuts in public spending.)Sy Borg wrote:Ditto. Still, with so much money simply being printed during 2020, people have been asking if governments ever needed taxation?Steve3007 wrote:That is that I am, in principle, in favour of the non-consensual violent robbery more commonly referred to as taxation, even if I don't always agree with the way it's spent. I agree enough to believe that on balance I prefer a society in which certain services whose continuity and relative consistency I consider to be essential are funded by taxation.
Well, if bitcoin ever did become a viable means of exchange to rival the world's leading fiat currencies (US dollar etc) maybe we'll find that hyperinflation has already started to happen. After all, in bitcoin terms, our dollars, euros and pounds are already worth only a fraction of what they were a year ago. I'd already need a wheelbarrow of money to buy one. But it probably doesn't work like that. I'm too ignorant of global economics to know exactly how it does, and will, work. On cryptocurrencies, I suspect most people agree with John Oliver when he said: "It's everything you don’t understand about money combined with everything you don’t understand about computers".After all, the money is worth the value of the government's fiat rather than being tied to a limited resource like gold. China has shown how an ungrounded currency can be used to buy anything within its borders.
I keep waiting for hyperinflation to set in but the bubble just keeps growing. At this stage, the impending economic collapse keeps being shored up but, like an old mine shored up one too many times, the break point will surely arrive.
Possibly. I hope not (obviously).Imagine living with 1.3 billion people, knowing that any rebellion will probably lead to widespread starvation again (and rest assured, the CCP will make sure that that happens on the way out if they are toppled). So there is an underlying desperation, a sense of of the Sword of Damocles ever dangling overhead by a thread. So the Chinese don't find the squashing of people's perceptions and creativity horrifying, just a necessary evil. That is where I think the west is heading - unless they address their own population vs infrastructure issues.
. Just acknowledging your previously expressed thoughts about the long term future of humanity and our technological offspring.Are you poking the bear again, Steven?
Pure socialist evil.Steve3007 wrote: ↑April 21st, 2021, 6:02 am
Out of interest, the above is a breakdown of current forecast annual public sector spending (violent robbery spending) in the UK. Source.
As you can see, defence is a relatively small part. Pre-covid, the biggest single bloc of spending was on health (NHS).
Any thoughts on what, if anything, you'd like to be done to minimize the likelihood of this kind of thing happening and/or to be done after it happens? Do you think that guy, ideally, should be arrested, tried and sentenced to some kind of punishment, like a prison sentence or something? If so, do you think the police officers, judges, lawyers, prison officers, etc, should be paid for their work?Empiricist-Bruno wrote:I had a guy bust my place's front door with a gun and a mask and who then proceeded to ask me where the money was.
Could you quote an example of that stench?Empiricist-Bruno wrote:My concern is that as I start reading the arguments from those who support taxation as it works today, I am struck by the powerful stench of greed emanating from them. I stand shocked by it.
My existence on this planet is first and foremost that of a wild being, like a pigeon. I just live day by day hoping it will be a happy one and working with that aim in mind. I do not wish to stop anyone doing what they feel like doing and if you want to rob others that's enough to make me feel sorry for you, a little.Steve3007 wrote: ↑April 30th, 2021, 8:58 amAny thoughts on what, if anything, you'd like to be done to minimize the likelihood of this kind of thing happening and/or to be done after it happens? Do you think that guy, ideally, should be arrested, tried and sentenced to some kind of punishment, like a prison sentence or something? If so, do you think the police officers, judges, lawyers, prison officers, etc, should be paid for their work?Empiricist-Bruno wrote:I had a guy bust my place's front door with a gun and a mask and who then proceeded to ask me where the money was.
Yes, I will clarify this for you. I wanted to highlight the forced contribution of german prisoners to the Nazi society in which they lived. These contribution (forced labor) really helped Germany who could then improve the prisoners' conditions and reward them with the fruits of their forced labor. So nothing wrong was done to German prisoners during the past world wars and so they ought to have been happy about their situation and not seek to escape from it onto a world that might not provide as good support.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑April 29th, 2021, 10:30 amRequest for clarificationEmpiricist-Bruno wrote: ↑April 29th, 2021, 7:36 amThe Nazis government also forced the contributions of lots of people too.Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 29th, 2021, 2:32 am That seems to be a growing attitude in America, the resentment at being forced to contribute to a society that provides the social and physical structures that made your safe and comfortable life possible. It's easy to take the basics of our lives for granted, to treat them as givens, until they are gone.
Are you comparing the governments of 1930-40 Nazi Germany with the present-day USA? There are some similarities, but the comparison does not lead to any useful conclusions that I can see. Are you suggesting that being taxed by your government is the same as being shipped off to a concentration camp?
Interesting point that, in a sense, we already see hyperinflation.Steve3007 wrote: ↑April 30th, 2021, 7:15 amI think here you're starting to explore the issues that were explored a bit more in the two topics on Modern Monetary Theory, and the resistance to the simplistic analogies between national economies and household budgets that politicians often make (usually when trying to justify cuts in public spending.)Sy Borg wrote:Ditto. Still, with so much money simply being printed during 2020, people have been asking if governments ever needed taxation?Steve3007 wrote:That is that I am, in principle, in favour of the non-consensual violent robbery more commonly referred to as taxation, even if I don't always agree with the way it's spent. I agree enough to believe that on balance I prefer a society in which certain services whose continuity and relative consistency I consider to be essential are funded by taxation.
Well, if bitcoin ever did become a viable means of exchange to rival the world's leading fiat currencies (US dollar etc) maybe we'll find that hyperinflation has already started to happen. After all, in bitcoin terms, our dollars, euros and pounds are already worth only a fraction of what they were a year ago. I'd already need a wheelbarrow of money to buy one. But it probably doesn't work like that. I'm too ignorant of global economics to know exactly how it does, and will, work. On cryptocurrencies, I suspect most people agree with John Oliver when he said: "It's everything you don’t understand about money combined with everything you don’t understand about computers".After all, the money is worth the value of the government's fiat rather than being tied to a limited resource like gold. China has shown how an ungrounded currency can be used to buy anything within its borders.
I keep waiting for hyperinflation to set in but the bubble just keeps growing. At this stage, the impending economic collapse keeps being shored up but, like an old mine shored up one too many times, the break point will surely arrive.
Then you are hoping we can address our population and infrastructure issues. And how we can segue gracefully into my pet topic - the upcoming societal and eventual species split between H. sapiens and H. machina :))) We can already see billionaires and their multinational enterprises decoupling from the taxation system (with some acting more like parasites than participants, ahem, Rupert *cough cough*).Steve3007 wrote: ↑April 30th, 2021, 7:15 amPossibly. I hope not (obviously).Imagine living with 1.3 billion people, knowing that any rebellion will probably lead to widespread starvation again (and rest assured, the CCP will make sure that that happens on the way out if they are toppled). So there is an underlying desperation, a sense of of the Sword of Damocles ever dangling overhead by a thread. So the Chinese don't find the squashing of people's perceptions and creativity horrifying, just a necessary evil. That is where I think the west is heading - unless they address their own population vs infrastructure issues.
Quoting stench is quite something to accomplish. I don't know if I can do that but I surely can give you an idea of how I get it.Steve3007 wrote: ↑April 30th, 2021, 9:10 amCould you quote an example of that stench?Empiricist-Bruno wrote:My concern is that as I start reading the arguments from those who support taxation as it works today, I am struck by the powerful stench of greed emanating from them. I stand shocked by it.
So your objection is to the use of animal testing in drug development which you see as an objection to taxation. Understood.Empiricist-Bruno wrote:Products that have been tested on animals bear an incredible stench, don't you agree?
So would you be in favour of paying for their efforts the people who arrest, try, sentence and punish Justin Trudeau for whatever crimes you think he's committed? i.e. are you in favour of any form of policing and judiciary which is more than just a group of unpaid volunteers (a.k.a. vigilantes) or people paid from charitable donations? If so, how would you propose that they be paid? Would the fact that animal testing of drugs occurs mean that the answer wouldn't be taxation?Empiricist-Bruno wrote:In the long list of morally bankrupt people that I would like to see arrested and punished appropriately, that guy certainly would not be anywhere near the top. At the top of that list would be Justin Trudeau, Premier of Canada, for his betrayal of Canadians over his abandonment of his electoral reform that helped him get elected as a key electoral promise.
No, I would not be in favor of paying anyone trying to arrest Justin Trudeau. We live in times of bullyism and I certainly didn't mean to say that I wished to see Justin be arrested with the bullying approach used by today's justice people. I just meant to say that if I had the choice between seeing the guy who attempted to mug me in a home invasion being targeted by police or seeing Justin Trudeau (who deprived me of his promised electoral reform in a swindle to get elected) targeted, I would certainly prefer to see Justin having the dogs sent after him.Steve3007 wrote: ↑May 4th, 2021, 4:11 amSo would you be in favour of paying for their efforts the people who arrest, try, sentence and punish Justin Trudeau for whatever crimes you think he's committed? i.e. are you in favour of any form of policing and judiciary which is more than just a group of unpaid volunteers (a.k.a. vigilantes) or people paid from charitable donations? If so, how would you propose that they be paid? Would the fact that animal testing of drugs occurs mean that the answer wouldn't be taxation?Empiricist-Bruno wrote:In the long list of morally bankrupt people that I would like to see arrested and punished appropriately, that guy certainly would not be anywhere near the top. At the top of that list would be Justin Trudeau, Premier of Canada, for his betrayal of Canadians over his abandonment of his electoral reform that helped him get elected as a key electoral promise.
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