The self beyond thought, sensation, and experience

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
User avatar
AmericanKestrel
Posts: 356
Joined: May 22nd, 2021, 6:26 am
Favorite Philosopher: Yagnyavalkya
Location: US

Re: The self beyond thought, sensation, and experience

Post by AmericanKestrel »

popeye1945 wrote: June 7th, 2021, 2:36 pm
AmericanKestrel wrote: June 7th, 2021, 1:47 pm
RJG wrote: June 7th, 2021, 8:12 am
The "self" ("I"; consciousness) is just the "experiencer" (physical recognition) of the thoughts, feelings, and sensations reactively created by the physical body. There is no "self" beyond these experiences.
If the Self is the experiencer of the experience, and there is no self beyond these experiences, then the experience and the experiencer are the same. Where is the self?
Define self.
Advaita defines self (Atma) as the the reflection of the one single universal existence known as Brhman (Bigness) . It is the body that experiences the world created by the mind. The Atma remains as a seer and is not affected by the experience in any way.
AmericanKestrel,
"The Atman remains as seer and is not affected by the experience in any way." quote You must admit that this is a mystical statement and really just a statement of the existence of a god, where else might one find a bases for such a statement. Personally I am more comfortable with Spinoza's god, being the totality.
Define god. If you mean by that a creator god, no, there is no creation outside of what your own mind creates and projects. The universe is within you.
"The Serpent did not lie."
User avatar
AmericanKestrel
Posts: 356
Joined: May 22nd, 2021, 6:26 am
Favorite Philosopher: Yagnyavalkya
Location: US

Re: The self beyond thought, sensation, and experience

Post by AmericanKestrel »

popeye1945 wrote: June 7th, 2021, 2:40 pm The self is both subject and object and the object includes the cosmos.
The self can only be the subject, always the subject. Once there is an object it is dualism. The self is one, non-dual existence.
If the subject equals object it is an illusion.
"The Serpent did not lie."
popeye1945
Posts: 1085
Joined: October 22nd, 2020, 2:22 am
Favorite Philosopher: Alfred North Whitehead
Location: canada

Re: The self beyond thought, sensation, and experience

Post by popeye1945 »

AmericanKestrel wrote: June 7th, 2021, 5:39 pm
popeye1945 wrote: June 7th, 2021, 2:40 pm The self is both subject and object and the object includes the cosmos.
The self can only be the subject, always the subject. Once there is an object it is dualism. The self is one, non-dual existence.
If the subject equals object it is an illusion.
AmericanKestrel,
That is what I have been trying to get acrosss the union of subject and object is not a duality, one just needs to know it for what it is. Schopenhauer was right subject and object stand or fall together, no duality. Without both as a unity, there is nothing. You are the world the eyes the consciousness of the world. "If the subject equals object it is illusion." Well, apparent reality is an illusion it is the biological readout of the subject, and not being able to sense all stimulus it fails to see ultimate reality. Subject and object one.
popeye1945
Posts: 1085
Joined: October 22nd, 2020, 2:22 am
Favorite Philosopher: Alfred North Whitehead
Location: canada

Re: The self beyond thought, sensation, and experience

Post by popeye1945 »

Define god. If you mean by that a creator god, no, there is no creation outside of what your own mind creates and projects. The universe is within you.
[/quote]

AmericanKestrel,
We are pretty much saying the same thing here, subject and object are a mutual creation, again apparent reality is a biological readout by the subject and subject arose from ultimate reality, but the subject only perceives through sensing/reaction part of the spectrum of ultimate reality, thus it is called apparent reality. Ultimate reality is not accessible to the conscious subject.
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: The self beyond thought, sensation, and experience

Post by RJG »

RJG wrote:The "self" ("I"; consciousness) is just the "experiencer" (physical recognition) of the thoughts, feelings, and sensations reactively created by the physical body. There is no "self" beyond these experiences.
AmericanKestrel wrote:If the Self is the experiencer of the experience, and there is no self beyond these experiences, then the experience and the experiencer are the same.
Not so. The physical body* is the experiencer. Bodily reactions are the experiences.

Consciousness itself is an experience (a bodily reaction called "recognition") made possible by memory. Those bodies that possess memory have the capability to experience consciousness, as do those bodies that possess eyeballs have the capability to experience sight/vision.

Note* -- To be more specific, the "self" ("I"; consciousness; experiencer) is the memory portion of the physical body. Take away someone's memory and you take away their consciousness. (...take away their eyeballs and you take away their sight.).
Last edited by RJG on June 8th, 2021, 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 6227
Joined: August 23rd, 2016, 3:00 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine
Location: NYC Man

Re: The self beyond thought, sensation, and experience

Post by Terrapin Station »

Markgrundr wrote: May 12th, 2021, 7:00 pm Feel free to direct me to another discussion but I couldn't find one addressing my particular view. There's something that is constantly on that lies deeper than thought and sensation. Thoughts and senses are how I interact with the world, but they are not me. They are the vessel by which I exist in the universe. They are the coat I put on to go out in the universe night.

Although my body is composed entirely of the universe, it's not certain nor even apparent that the spirit inside is. You could say it's a cloud of electricity inside the brain, but this doesn't fully explain the "I"ness or how and why my consciousness evolved to exist. If any one of my father's sperm had beat the one that made it to my mother's egg, they'd have conceived a body very similar but the I that is me would never have existed (or would it?), and from my point of view the universe would never have existed.

The I is something that voluntarily interacts in the world but whose existence is involuntary (except to end it by suicide. The constant hum began and continues involuntarily).

There is a fundamental difference between myself and all other beings, just as there is between yourself and all other beings- a fundamental uniqueness that indicates something other-worldly even from an atheist perspective. Although multiples souls exist, each one isn't just unique but uniquely unique.

You can explain its biological origins and how it interacts with the world, but its essential origin is not of the scientific or corporeal realm..
I couldn't more strongly disagree with this, plus (a) there's absolutely no evidence to suggest that it's right, and (b) it doesn't even make any philosophical sense.

You're simply your body, and insofar as any mental phenomena go, you're simply what your particular brain does.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: The self beyond thought, sensation, and experience

Post by Steve3007 »

Markgrundr wrote:Although multiples souls exist, each one isn't just unique but uniquely unique.
Just a quick confirmation of intended meaning: What's the difference between being unique and being uniquely unique? Is it possible to be non-uniquely unique?
popeye1945
Posts: 1085
Joined: October 22nd, 2020, 2:22 am
Favorite Philosopher: Alfred North Whitehead
Location: canada

Re: The self beyond thought, sensation, and experience

Post by popeye1945 »

RJG wrote: June 8th, 2021, 8:17 am
RJG wrote:The "self" ("I"; consciousness) is just the "experiencer" (physical recognition) of the thoughts, feelings, and sensations reactively created by the physical body. There is no "self" beyond these experiences.
AmericanKestrel wrote:If the Self is the experiencer of the experience, and there is no self beyond these experiences, then the experience and the experiencer are the same.
AmericanKestrel.
Yes I would say that the experiencer and that which is experienced/object are one.
User avatar
AmericanKestrel
Posts: 356
Joined: May 22nd, 2021, 6:26 am
Favorite Philosopher: Yagnyavalkya
Location: US

Re: The self beyond thought, sensation, and experience

Post by AmericanKestrel »

popeye1945 wrote: June 8th, 2021, 5:24 pm
RJG wrote: June 8th, 2021, 8:17 am
RJG wrote:The "self" ("I"; consciousness) is just the "experiencer" (physical recognition) of the thoughts, feelings, and sensations reactively created by the physical body. There is no "self" beyond these experiences.
AmericanKestrel wrote:If the Self is the experiencer of the experience, and there is no self beyond these experiences, then the experience and the experiencer are the same.
AmericanKestrel.
Yes I would say that the experiencer and that which is experienced/object are one.
In that case it is an illusion of the mind, not of the self which is self-illumined and is always the subject.
"The Serpent did not lie."
popeye1945
Posts: 1085
Joined: October 22nd, 2020, 2:22 am
Favorite Philosopher: Alfred North Whitehead
Location: canada

Re: The self beyond thought, sensation, and experience

Post by popeye1945 »

AmericanKestrel wrote: June 9th, 2021, 6:16 am
popeye1945 wrote: June 8th, 2021, 5:24 pm
RJG wrote: June 8th, 2021, 8:17 am
RJG wrote:The "self" ("I"; consciousness) is just the "experiencer" (physical recognition) of the thoughts, feelings, and sensations reactively created by the physical body. There is no "self" beyond these experiences.
AmericanKestrel wrote:If the Self is the experiencer of the experience, and there is no self beyond these experiences, then the experience and the experiencer are the same.
AmericanKestrel.
Yes I would say that the experiencer and that which is experienced/object are one.
In that case it is an illusion of the mind, not of the self which is self-illumined and is always the subject.
AmericanKestrel.
Yes, I think what you have is a mystical interpretation. If you agree with Schopenhauer that subject and object stand or fall together then you must understand without that unity as one there is nothing, a non-mystical view.
User avatar
AmericanKestrel
Posts: 356
Joined: May 22nd, 2021, 6:26 am
Favorite Philosopher: Yagnyavalkya
Location: US

Re: The self beyond thought, sensation, and experience

Post by AmericanKestrel »

popeye1945 wrote: June 9th, 2021, 9:16 am
AmericanKestrel wrote: June 9th, 2021, 6:16 am
popeye1945 wrote: June 8th, 2021, 5:24 pm
RJG wrote: June 8th, 2021, 8:17 am


AmericanKestrel.
Yes I would say that the experiencer and that which is experienced/object are one.
In that case it is an illusion of the mind, not of the self which is self-illumined and is always the subject.
AmericanKestrel.
Yes, I think what you have is a mystical interpretation. If you agree with Schopenhauer that subject and object stand or fall together then you must understand without that unity as one there is nothing, a non-mystical view.
It could be mystical and esoterical, but it is a correct observation. If you see a dog and think you are a dog, what do you call that?
"The Serpent did not lie."
popeye1945
Posts: 1085
Joined: October 22nd, 2020, 2:22 am
Favorite Philosopher: Alfred North Whitehead
Location: canada

Re: The self beyond thought, sensation, and experience

Post by popeye1945 »

AmericanKestrel,
LOL!!! That's funny but if you understand that the physical world as object is half of your cognitive function. It is the fuel the brain runs upon in order to produce the mind. That is why Schopenhauer says subject and object stand or fall together. Whatever is outside you is the physical world including your own body. The mind's first object is the body and it is only through the body that the mind knows a physical world. PS; you still see a dog or a tree or a waterfall.
popeye1945
Posts: 1085
Joined: October 22nd, 2020, 2:22 am
Favorite Philosopher: Alfred North Whitehead
Location: canada

Re: The self beyond thought, sensation, and experience

Post by popeye1945 »

AmericanKestrel,
AJG and I seem to be differing somewhat here, if you say that subject and object are one you've got it. One cannot exist without the other. Remember the physical world you know is not independent of you its reality is cognitive and a biological readout. The individual is both subject and object.
User avatar
AmericanKestrel
Posts: 356
Joined: May 22nd, 2021, 6:26 am
Favorite Philosopher: Yagnyavalkya
Location: US

Re: The self beyond thought, sensation, and experience

Post by AmericanKestrel »

popeye1945 wrote: June 9th, 2021, 3:37 pm AmericanKestrel,
LOL!!! That's funny but if you understand that the physical world as object is half of your cognitive function. It is the fuel the brain runs upon in order to produce the mind. That is why Schopenhauer says subject and object stand or fall together. Whatever is outside you is the physical world including your own body. The mind's first object is the body and it is only through the body that the mind knows a physical world. PS; you still see a dog or a tree or a waterfall.
The body-mind complex and the world is not your true self. You have to look within, not outwards, to find your Self.
"The Serpent did not lie."
User avatar
AmericanKestrel
Posts: 356
Joined: May 22nd, 2021, 6:26 am
Favorite Philosopher: Yagnyavalkya
Location: US

Re: The self beyond thought, sensation, and experience

Post by AmericanKestrel »

popeye1945 wrote: June 9th, 2021, 3:49 pm AmericanKestrel,
AJG and I seem to be differing somewhat here, if you say that subject and object are one you've got it. One cannot exist without the other. Remember the physical world you know is not independent of you its reality is cognitive and a biological readout. The individual is both subject and object.
Your view is incomplete, that is why it does not make sense. There is only one subject, everything else is objects. Objects, the world, are projections of the mind, they have only a relative xistence. The Self, the seer, is eternal, the only reality. It alone remains after the body, and the mind along with it, dies. This is the only thing that exists in all names and forms.
"The Serpent did not lie."
Post Reply

Return to “Epistemology and Metaphysics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021