Can we agree as to what metaphysics is?

[3017Metaphysician]

Let's stay focused on first principles. As you may know Metaphysics deals with first principles.

One of three traditional aspects of metaphysics is first principles, which are basically the "logical preconditions" of ontological facts.

Again, ontology has been the bulk of metaphysics for quite some time now.

So, you are now saying that relative to physical objects one engages in "making observations of it" which I don't think anyone would take any exceptions. By what method then are you making those observations? Is that method physical or metaphysical?

When I explained two or three times above that "metaphysical" and "physical" aren't mutually exclusive categories, did you pay any attention to it? Obviously you disagreed. Can you present the core of your disagreement? It does no good for you to just keep repeating something as if I never addressed it.

Observations are made through one's senses, but as I noted above, preferably they'll involve scientific instruments, too.

TS!

I did, but the premise didn't follow. You said "individuals" "make observations". And I asked basically if that was a Subjective truth and you never answered the question. Would you like me to re-state it?

Now, if you are somehow answering that metaphysical question by saying physical and metaphysical "aren't mutually exclusive", what does that mean concerning apperception of a things-in-themselves?

Are you changing your position about the list of things? BTW, you haven't answered them other than to suggest philosophical Subjectivity, which would make your argument about all of life being 'physical' (particularly from other threads) very weak.

Anyway, provide some clarification(s) if you can.

Oh, did you ignore the other questions too (music and math)?

First request

[Terrapin Station]

I did, but the premise didn't follow. You said "individuals" "make observations". And I asked basically if that was a Subjective truth and you never answered the question. Would you like me to re-state it?

It wasn't clear that you asked that. Truth is subjective, as I've explained before, because truth value is a judgment that one makes about the way a proposition relates to something else. Judgments are something we do mentally. Hence they're subjective. Keep in mind that that is all that "subjective" denotes here--it simply denotes that we're talking about mental phenomenon.

Now, if you are somehow answering that metaphysical question by saying physical and metaphysical "aren't mutually exclusive", what does that mean concerning apperception of a things-in-themselves?

I have no idea because it's a mystery to me what you're seeing as implications there. I'd say the two issues have nothing to do with each other. You have a tendency to comment on things based on an extensive framework that you're not sharing. And then it's as if we're supposed to be able to just guess all the details of your framework or something. So I don't know. You'd have to explain what you see as the connection in a lot more detail.

Are you changing your position about the list of things?

I had no idea I stated a position. I just listed some stuff sarcastically (though it was items that would be on an actual list), and I said you'd have to explain what else it was you were looking for. You explained a bit and I answered as well as I could, where I asked for some clarifications that you ignored like usual.

BTW, you haven't answered them

Answered them? What is "them"? I don't get what I'm supposed to be answering. Again, this is a mystery where you're not giving much detail about what you're thinking.

other than to suggest philosophical Subjectivity,

I'm not even sure what that's supposed to refer to. Some things are mental phenomena. Some things are not. The stuff that's mental phenomena is stuff that I call "subjective." "Subjective" ONLY refers to the fact that it's mental phenomena. It's simply another way of saying that. But again, plenty of things aren't mental phenomena. Making the distinction is kind of like making a distinction that some things are in a refrigerator and some things are not (except that it's more like making a distinction about "refrigerated things in a refrigerator," where they wouldn't be refrigerated things when they're not in a refrigerator).

which would make your argument about all of life being 'physical' (particularly from other threads) very weak.

Minds are physical phenomena.

Oh, did you ignore the other questions too (music and math)?

Huh? Where was that?

[3017Metaphysician]

I did, but the premise didn't follow. You said "individuals" "make observations". And I asked basically if that was a Subjective truth and you never answered the question. Would you like me to re-state it?

It wasn't clear that you asked that. Truth is subjective, as I've explained before, because truth value is a judgment that one makes about the way a proposition relates to something else. Judgments are something we do mentally. Hence they're subjective. Keep in mind that that is all that "subjective" denotes here--it simply denotes that we're talking about mental phenomenon.

Now, if you are somehow answering that metaphysical question by saying physical and metaphysical "aren't mutually exclusive", what does that mean concerning apperception of a things-in-themselves?

I have no idea because it's a mystery to me what you're seeing as implications there. I'd say the two issues have nothing to do with each other. You have a tendency to comment on things based on an extensive framework that you're not sharing. And then it's as if we're supposed to be able to just guess all the details of your framework or something. So I don't know. You'd have to explain what you see as the connection in a lot more detail.

Are you changing your position about the list of things?

I had no idea I stated a position. I just listed some stuff sarcastically (though it was items that would be on an actual list), and I said you'd have to explain what else it was you were looking for. You explained a bit and I answered as well as I could, where I asked for some clarifications that you ignored like usual.

BTW, you haven't answered them

Answered them? What is "them"? I don't get what I'm supposed to be answering. Again, this is a mystery where you're not giving much detail about what you're thinking.

other than to suggest philosophical Subjectivity,

I'm not even sure what that's supposed to refer to. Some things are mental phenomena. Some things are not. The stuff that's mental phenomena is stuff that I call "subjective." "Subjective" ONLY refers to the fact that it's mental phenomena. It's simply another way of saying that. But again, plenty of things aren't mental phenomena. Making the distinction is kind of like making a distinction that some things are in a refrigerator and some things are not (except that it's more like making a distinction about "refrigerated things in a refrigerator," where they wouldn't be refrigerated things when they're not in a refrigerator).

which would make your argument about all of life being 'physical' (particularly from other threads) very weak.

Minds are physical phenomena.

Oh, did you ignore the other questions too (music and math)?

Huh? Where was that?

TS!

Great. If truth is Subjective, and Subjectivity is consciousness and the Will, then is your truth physical or metaphysical? You may want to try do define the Metaphysical Will that's part of your 'senses' first in answering the question.

Anyway, shall I Iist the questions again, or is this your way of throwing in the towel?

Gosh TS, thus far, you seem to be all bark and no bit. and we haven't even gotten to the good stuff yet!! LOL

Questions, questions, questions!!!!!

Math and music=physical or metaphysical?

3rd request

[Terrapin Station]

Great. If truth is Subjective, and Subjectivity is consciousness and the Will, then is your truth physical or metaphysical?

As I just wrote above, and you just quoted, "Minds are physical phenomena." Truth, like everything else on my view, is physical. Again, truth-values are judgments we make. Judgments are mental phenomena. Minds (mental phenomena) are physical phenomena.

You may want to try do define the Metaphysical Will that's part of your 'senses' first in answering the question.

"Will," judgments, and all mental phenomena are brain states. That's what those things are metaphysically. Dynamic brain states.

Anyway, shall I Iist the questions again, or is this your way of throwing in the towel?

If it's the same questions you asked before that I answered already (about shoes and so on), then definitely not. How about responding to my answers and answering the clarifying questions I asked you where I felt that you weren't clear?

Math and music=physical or metaphysical?

I'm a physicalist. What music is metaphysically is physical phenomena, just like everything else that exists.

[Steve3007]

I bet a million dollars that the next post contains the text "4th request".

[Steve3007]

It's a silly game he's playing. Just like Evolution/Creation and others, he's not interested in your replies. But hats off for trying. I guess it's interesting to see the different ways in which these people play these games.


4th Request. (I just said that to save myself a million dollars.)

[Steve3007]

This particular one mentions emotions a lot. I guess the buzz is imagining that people are getting wound up.

[3017Metaphysician]

Great. If truth is Subjective, and Subjectivity is consciousness and the Will, then is your truth physical or metaphysical?

As I just wrote above, and you just quoted, "Minds are physical phenomena." Truth, like everything else on my view, is physical. Again, truth-values are judgments we make. Judgments are mental phenomena. Minds (mental phenomena) are physical phenomena.

You may want to try do define the Metaphysical Will that's part of your 'senses' first in answering the question.

"Will," judgments, and all mental phenomena are brain states. That's what those things are metaphysically. Dynamic brain states.

Anyway, shall I Iist the questions again, or is this your way of throwing in the towel?

If it's the same questions you asked before that I answered already (about shoes and so on), then definitely not. How about responding to my answers and answering the clarifying questions I asked you where I felt that you weren't clear?

Math and music=physical or metaphysical?

I'm a physicalist. What music is metaphysically is physical phenomena, just like everything else that exists.

TS!

Please feel free to support your arguments if you can. For example, how does physicalism explain abstract metaphysical things-in-themselves?

[3017Metaphysician]

This particular one mentions emotions a lot. I guess the buzz is imagining that people are getting wound up.

Steve!

Nice. This only supports the Metaphysical argument, no? In other words, what causes 'people' to act on their emotions?

LOL

[Terrapin Station]

Please feel free to support your arguments if you can. For example, how does physicalism explain abstract metaphysical things-in-themselves?

So, I don't know what "thing-in-themselves" is adding there. In my opinion a lot of Kant is a mess, so we'd have to clarify what that's supposed to be saying that's different than merely "How does physicalism explain abstracts?"

There's not just one physicalist account of what abstracts are.

On my view, abstraction is simply the mental phenomenon of "ranging over particulars" via setting aside details of particulars that differ and fictionalizing a "type" that then hinges on broad (detail-ignoring) resemblances. So, for example, we ignore the details of particular triangular things and we fictionalize a "type," a "triangle," a la an enclosed three-sided figure. The abstraction is a mental event. (So dynamic, physical brain states.)

[3017Metaphysician]

Please feel free to support your arguments if you can. For example, how does physicalism explain abstract metaphysical things-in-themselves?

So, I don't know what "thing-in-themselves" is adding there. In my opinion a lot of Kant is a mess, so we'd have to clarify what that's supposed to be saying that's different than merely "How does physicalism explain abstracts?"

There's not just one physicalist account of what abstracts are.

On my view, abstraction is simply the mental phenomenon of "ranging over particulars" via setting aside details of particulars that differ and fictionalizing a "type" that then hinges on broad (detail-ignoring) resemblances. So, for example, we ignore the details of particular triangular things and we fictionalize a "type," a "triangle," a la an enclosed three-sided figure. The abstraction is a mental event. (So dynamic, physical brain states.)

Kantian Metaphysics a mess? Please share your thoughts, if you are able.

You still haven't reconciled how physicalism/metal events explains metaphysically conscious phenomena, did you?. Has consciousness been objectively explained? Did Dennet explain it? Where's Dennet when you need him!!!

Okay, let's see, if mathematics stumps you (which obviously it has, since it's clearly metaphysical), how about music? Is the apperception of music all physical too? What is the purpose of music theory? Does it have any biological advantages? LOL

Oh, I forgot, did you parse the Metaphysical Will yet? Are you familiar with Schopenhauer, or is he "a mess" too?

Just an observation, and please don't take this the wrong way, I'm starting to think your "individual" subjectivity is full of personal bias. In other words, you say you don't understand Kant, and you may have strong feelings about him. Does personal bias in itself refute physicalism? Is bias a feeling? Remember feelings themselves are neither right or wrong; they're feelings. How would that even square with your objective belief system? It seems like your own belief system (your way of understanding truth) is coming back to bite you, no?

Anyway, TS, you're all over the map! But hey, that's okay, please try to work through the concerns and support your arguments if you can. We'll keep trying.

Questions, questions, questions!!!!!

[PoeticUniverse]

I guess it's interesting to see the different ways in which these people play these games.

Yes, good for a study of the cognitive behavior of 'invisibility disorder', 'avoidance', and 'boringness' in threads to try to have metaphysical god.

[Terrapin Station]

You still haven't reconciled how physicalism/metal events explains metaphysically conscious phenomena, did you?. Has consciousness been objectively explained? Did Dennet explain it? Where's Dennet when you need him!!!

I'll do an "It's not explained" discussion on these grounds:
(1) You give detailed criteria you're using for counting as an explanation in general,
(2) You also tell us why your criteria from (1) are going to be the demarcation criteria for explanations, and
(3) We examine whether the criteria given in (1) actually are your demarcation criteria by testing them with a number of mundane things (so, not consciousness) that you believe are explained versus not explained, and we make sure that you can present explanations for what you consider explained that meet your criteria, and we see whether some of the mundane stuff that you don't consider explained can't be explained per your criteria.

If we don't do the above three points systematically, I'll not entertain "it's not explained" discussions. Unfortunately, since I can't get you to even respond to the simplest of questions or requests, there's no way in hell that you'll be doing any of (1), (2) or (3) above.

Okay, let's see, if mathematics stumps you (which obviously it has, since it's clearly metaphysical), how about music?

Before I answer any more questions, is there any possibility that you'll answer even a single question I asked you above? If you won't, why should I answer any question you're asking? Don't conversations require both people answering questions?

Do you want me to start doing this:

2nd request:
"we'd have to clarify what that's supposed to be saying that's different than merely 'How does physicalism explain abstracts?'"

[Chasw]

Good discussion, thx 3017 for starting it. Although there are many ways to describe the field of metaphysics, you'll note that any liberal arts college or university worth its salt offers an upper division course on the topic. Typically, the professor decides, with dept approval, which aspect of the field to focus on. As for the question, "What is metaphysics?", I don't have the direct answer, but it adds impetus to a recent project of mine, which is to prepare a model of the various fields of philosophy and how they relate to each other.

When I have it all doped out in diagrammatic format, I'll let you all know, but for starters, the top of my map, just above metaphysics, is Philosophy of the Mind, the entry point for all philosophical inquiry, IMO. For the descriptive content of this field in my model, I'm firmly influenced by Rene Descartes' 2nd Meditation, thus I'm a dualist. Everything we might discuss and reflect on regarding metaphysics must be seen a function of our minds, using language in an attempt to make sense of the universe, starting with our most fundamental questions. - CW

[Pattern-chaser]

Topic title: Can we agree as to what metaphysics is?

How about this? It's how the word is generally used....

"Metaphysics" describes those questions, theories and enquiries that science cannot address, but philosophy can.