Is Ethics a Puzzle of Uncertainties?

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JackDaydream
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Is Ethics a Puzzle of Uncertainties?

Post by JackDaydream »

I have been thinking about the nature of ethics in relation to uncertainty. William De Witt Hyde, in 'Practical Ethics', said, 'Ethics is the science of conduct and the art of life?' It can be asked what are the variables which come into play in this art?

One aspect is the debate between moral absolutism and moral relativism. Thomas Aquinas spoke of natural law in morality. Immanuel Kant argued for the existence of a priori principles, especially in his idea of the categorical imperative, which involves considering one's own choices being put into action on a universal scale. However, while some writers have suggested clear ways of establishing ethics, it does appear that moral codes vary culturally.

Moral choices also involve internal factors of conscience and virtue, related to the nature of duty. Also, it involves thinking of the consequences of action. This is the debate between duty based, deontological ethics and the utilitarian approaches. The idea of duty is connected to the understanding of morality as a basis for choice in contrast to that of consideration of choices. Generally, I am more inclined to an thinking about ethics in relation to the importance of consequences of acts.

That is where I began wondering about the nature of uncertainty and choice, while reading, 'The Black Swan: The Impact of the Highly Improbable', by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. His idea of the black swan is about the way in which exceptions arise in the course of nature and social life. His argument is:
'Almost everything in social life is produced by rare but consequential shocks and jumps; all the while almost everything studied about social life focuses on the "normal", particularly with the "bell curve" inference that tell you close to nothing. Why? Because the bell curve ignores large deviations, cannot handle them, yet makes us confident that we have tamed them.'

I hope that what I have written is not too vague or abstract, but I am thinking about how uncertainty is juggled in moral choices. Human beings are weighing up the effects of action amidst so much uncertainty. I have thought about that in regard to the decisions and policies made in relation to the pandemic and about the environment and climate change. However, unpredictability also looms before the individual, with choices about the consequences of one's behaviour in one's own life and that of others people and forms of life. It is about thinking in a fog of the unknown future So, I am asking what do you think about ethics in relation to the idea and existence of uncertainty?
GE Morton
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Re: Is Ethics a Puzzle of Uncertainties?

Post by GE Morton »

JackDaydream wrote: January 14th, 2022, 11:23 am
I hope that what I have written is not too vague or abstract, but I am thinking about how uncertainty is juggled in moral choices. Human beings are weighing up the effects of action amidst so much uncertainty. I have thought about that in regard to the decisions and policies made in relation to the pandemic and about the environment and climate change. However, unpredictability also looms before the individual, with choices about the consequences of one's behaviour in one's own life and that of others people and forms of life. It is about thinking in a fog of the unknown future So, I am asking what do you think about ethics in relation to the idea and existence of uncertainty?
Uncertainty constantly besets moral decision-making, but not moral theorizing. For example, there is nothing problematic about the moral precept, "Do no harm." But uncertainty will often arise when trying to decide whether doing X WILL do harm, or whether it will do more or less harm than not doing it.

But while asking those questions in a given situation is a moral duty, answering them is not; it is an empirical, scientific (in the broad sense) problem.
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Thomyum2
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Re: Is Ethics a Puzzle of Uncertainties?

Post by Thomyum2 »

JackDaydream wrote: January 14th, 2022, 11:23 am I have been thinking about the nature of ethics in relation to uncertainty. William De Witt Hyde, in 'Practical Ethics', said, 'Ethics is the science of conduct and the art of life?' It can be asked what are the variables which come into play in this art?

One aspect is the debate between moral absolutism and moral relativism. Thomas Aquinas spoke of natural law in morality. Immanuel Kant argued for the existence of a priori principles, especially in his idea of the categorical imperative, which involves considering one's own choices being put into action on a universal scale. However, while some writers have suggested clear ways of establishing ethics, it does appear that moral codes vary culturally.

Moral choices also involve internal factors of conscience and virtue, related to the nature of duty. Also, it involves thinking of the consequences of action. This is the debate between duty based, deontological ethics and the utilitarian approaches. The idea of duty is connected to the understanding of morality as a basis for choice in contrast to that of consideration of choices. Generally, I am more inclined to an thinking about ethics in relation to the importance of consequences of acts.
...

I hope that what I have written is not too vague or abstract, but I am thinking about how uncertainty is juggled in moral choices. Human beings are weighing up the effects of action amidst so much uncertainty. I have thought about that in regard to the decisions and policies made in relation to the pandemic and about the environment and climate change. However, unpredictability also looms before the individual, with choices about the consequences of one's behaviour in one's own life and that of others people and forms of life. It is about thinking in a fog of the unknown future So, I am asking what do you think about ethics in relation to the idea and existence of uncertainty?
Hi JackDayDream,

I think you've hit exactly upon what makes ethics and morality so challenging: the fact that we are faced with such uncertainty and limitations on our ability to know the ultimate consequences of our actions. It may seem silly to say so, but I often think of Gandalf's admonition in The Fellowship of the Ring: "Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." For this reason, I tend to think that Kant was onto something essential in understanding that one's intentions are more important than anything else: "It is impossible to think of anything at all in the world, or indeed even beyond it, that could be considered good without limitation except a good will."

Ethics isn't an area in which I have a lot of expertise or confidence, and is sounds like you've likely read more broadly on this topic than I have, so I won't try to say too much more. But there's famous lecture by one of my favorite philosophers, William James - The Moral Philosopher and the Moral Life - that I'd highly recommend if you haven't read it already. It's had a profound effect on me personally and on how I think about and understand moral questions. One of my favorite passages, which I find very insightful is as follows: "Abstract rules indeed can help; but they help the less in proportion as our intuitions are more piercing, and our vocation is the stronger for the moral life. For every real dilemma is in literal strictness a unique situation; and the exact combination of ideals realized and ideals disappointed which each decision creates is always a universe without a precedent, and for which no adequate previous rule exists." I agree with this - I think that we can be guided by rules and by experience, but ultimately each moral choice is one that we face alone and that we can only make it ourselves. And we each must rely on our own good will and our intuition - in other words to look within ourselves - in order to make it. There is no certainty in it other than that which we find within our own being.
“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.”
— Epictetus
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JackDaydream
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Re: Is Ethics a Puzzle of Uncertainties?

Post by JackDaydream »

@Thomyum2

Yes, it does seem that Kant was perhaps correct in placing important on intentions rather than simply ends, simply because it is not always possible to see the furthest consequences of a given act. Just say, for example Gabriel gives money to Leonardo, who is in poverty, and this prevents Leonardo from being evicted. However, a month later, Leonardo has a bad argument with his next door neighbour, Rupert, because he thinks Rupert is flirting with Sophie, who is Leonardo's partner. Leonardo attacks Rupert with a knife and kills Rupert. Gabriel hears of this and regrets giving money to Leonardo as an act of good will. This little example gives the way in which acts which are 'good' may not help in the complex chain of events which unfold in life. But, any person can be conscious of intent.

The way it appears to me is that the juggling of potential consequences of actions and intention is a delicate balance. It may be made based partly on intuition, especially in the spontaneity of the moment. On a longer term basis, where decisions are being made there may be more weighing of the pros and cons of certain acts, especially where there are clashes, such as a decision to help Susan or Jane, if this involves conflict of interest and having to make choices.
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JackDaydream
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Re: Is Ethics a Puzzle of Uncertainties?

Post by JackDaydream »

@GE Morton

You suggest that uncertainty affects moral decision making but not moral theorizing. This really means that life is more complicated than the theories. Of course, theory can be a basis, but I do wonder if theories should reflect more of the nature of the 'black swans' of uncertainty in order to make the theories more robust and useful, rather than theories being too abstract to apply to real life. I am not trying to say that the basic ideas, such as utilitarianism, should be disregarded but need to be addressed in relation to the recognition of the 'black swans' of uncertainty. Also, Kant's idea of the categorical imperative was useful for thinking of the universal application of moral principles. However, it overlooked the specifics of situations as a generalisation and the unique aspects of moral decision making.

Basically, what I am trying to say is that the theories are a useful basis but thinking about ethics needs to be about aiding decision making rather than remaining as abstract theories. However, I am sure that in some areas of life, such as law all the unique situations, such as factors involved in crime, are looked at to make evaluations about people's moral actions.
stevie
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Re: Is Ethics a Puzzle of Uncertainties?

Post by stevie »

According to Merriam Webster I take "ethics" to be a 2c : a guiding philosophy
from which one's 2b: principles of conduct are derived. As such ethics are goal oriented and based on certainty [about one's goals].
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
GE Morton
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Re: Is Ethics a Puzzle of Uncertainties?

Post by GE Morton »

JackDaydream wrote: January 15th, 2022, 8:45 am @GE Morton

You suggest that uncertainty affects moral decision making but not moral theorizing. This really means that life is more complicated than the theories.
Sure. Reality regularly proves itself more complicated than theories describe. Physicists would be the first to admit that.
Of course, theory can be a basis, but I do wonder if theories should reflect more of the nature of the 'black swans' of uncertainty in order to make the theories more robust and useful, rather than theories being too abstract to apply to real life.
How might they do that?
I am not trying to say that the basic ideas, such as utilitarianism, should be disregarded but need to be addressed in relation to the recognition of the 'black swans' of uncertainty. Also, Kant's idea of the categorical imperative was useful for thinking of the universal application of moral principles. However, it overlooked the specifics of situations as a generalisation and the unique aspects of moral decision making.
It didn't overlook them; there is simply no way to embrace them. Rules are necessarily general.
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Re: Is Ethics a Puzzle of Uncertainties?

Post by chewybrian »

GE Morton wrote: January 15th, 2022, 2:02 pm
JackDaydream wrote: January 15th, 2022, 8:45 am @GE Morton

You suggest that uncertainty affects moral decision making but not moral theorizing. This really means that life is more complicated than the theories.
Sure. Reality regularly proves itself more complicated than theories describe. Physicists would be the first to admit that.
And libertarians might be the last.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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JackDaydream
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Re: Is Ethics a Puzzle of Uncertainties?

Post by JackDaydream »

@stevie

It may be that goals are extremely important and part of the problem with this is that it may be that many people are not clear about their goals. Also, there are conscious ones and others which are subconscious. This may explain why there are often incongruities in behaviour..

As far I am concerned, I can identify goals but I think that I often fail to meet them, often with negative effects for myself more than other people. I broke my own New Year resolution to cut out alcohol for a month by going out for a drink on New Year's day. I also buy too many things when I am out. I think that I lack discipline, but I do respect and others and try not to upset people. But, generally I think that even if people have ethical ideals it can be hard to live up to them. Having been brought up as a Catholic, I am aware of people going to confession and it is not long before they go out and commit the same sins again.
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JackDaydream
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Re: Is Ethics a Puzzle of Uncertainties?

Post by JackDaydream »

@GE Morton

It is hard to know how ethical theories could give exact guidance on uncertainty. However, it may be more in relation to applied ethics, such as in medical ethics. This probably comes into play in awareness of risks. It may be that ethics may be about assessing risks, benefits and disadvantages. This would be more a way of seeing action in a practical way rather than in an emphasis on goodness. I believe that Kant's philosophy of morality was bound up with an emphasis on piety and I believe that he lived like a monk and never had sex with anyone. But, many religious people did believe that it was better to be celibate and that masturbation was a sin.

In some ways, the idea of virtue in itself may have been more important in a religious society, although I am sure that independently of whether God exists, many people do wish to consider themselves as being good. I think that Carl Jung makes an important point, however, in suggesting that Christianity emphasises perfection in the idea of the imitation of Christ. He argued that this resulted in failure because it was unattainable, and he suggests that wholeness is more helpful. He maintained that people need to be able to integrate their shadow, the aspects which are repressed and suppressed in the process of socialization. Nevertheless, the idea of integrating the shadow is a difficult task. It could be interpreted a bit like Nietzsche's idea of going beyond good and evil, and, in some respects, it has some comparison because it may include an emphasis on the 'niceness' of convention. But, it could be that the path to integration of the shadow in itself paves the way for many mistakes.
.
stevie
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Re: Is Ethics a Puzzle of Uncertainties?

Post by stevie »

JackDaydream wrote: January 16th, 2022, 4:24 pm @ stevie

It may be that goals are extremely important and part of the problem with this is that it may be that many people are not clear about their goals. Also, there are conscious ones and others which are subconscious. This may explain why there are often incongruities in behaviour..

As far I am concerned, I can identify goals but I think that I often fail to meet them, often with negative effects for myself more than other people. I broke my own New Year resolution to cut out alcohol for a month by going out for a drink on New Year's day. I also buy too many things when I am out. I think that I lack discipline, but I do respect and others and try not to upset people. But, generally I think that even if people have ethical ideals it can be hard to live up to them. Having been brought up as a Catholic, I am aware of people going to confession and it is not long before they go out and commit the same sins again.
That's why a guiding philosophy is important and it must be a philosophy one is really convinced about its appropriateness (for oneself). The goal(s) set must derive from that philosophy as must one's conduct. Goals and conduct mustn't cause cognitive dissonance and initially missing achievement of the goal(s) has to be an integral possibility/part of the guiding philosophy.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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JackDaydream
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Re: Is Ethics a Puzzle of Uncertainties?

Post by JackDaydream »

@stevie

The problem with what you are saying is that it is too based on the conscious application of philosophy. Okay, as the people on the forum have chosen to join it is likely that there will be people here who think about philosophy to some extent. But many people in the world don't think about philosophy, or the underlying source of values consciously. So, in that context, for many morality and ethics is make it up as you go along. That means that it is mixture of conscience, as the internalised voice of social norms, alongside some moral feelings, with some rational logic.

In an ideal world, it would be beneficial if people were able to explore goals and develop ethics based on philosophy but it is probably not happening for the majority of the population in Western society, at least. The nearest to it happening is through self awareness gained through psychology, which is far more prominent than philosophy. In cognitive behavioral psychology based techniques, the basis of one's beliefs and assumptions and goals are focused upon so that enables people to be able to do this, so it is nearest possibility of people being able to understand and develop clear goals.
stevie
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Re: Is Ethics a Puzzle of Uncertainties?

Post by stevie »

JackDaydream wrote: January 17th, 2022, 4:48 am @ stevie

The problem with what you are saying is that it is too based on the conscious application of philosophy. Okay, as the people on the forum have chosen to join it is likely that there will be people here who think about philosophy to some extent. But many people in the world don't think about philosophy, or the underlying source of values consciously. So, in that context, for many morality and ethics is make it up as you go along. That means that it is mixture of conscience, as the internalised voice of social norms, alongside some moral feelings, with some rational logic.

In an ideal world, it would be beneficial if people were able to explore goals and develop ethics based on philosophy but it is probably not happening for the majority of the population in Western society, at least. The nearest to it happening is through self awareness gained through psychology, which is far more prominent than philosophy. In cognitive behavioral psychology based techniques, the basis of one's beliefs and assumptions and goals are focused upon so that enables people to be able to do this, so it is nearest possibility of people being able to understand and develop clear goals.
Neither do I refer to "people" nor do I refer to "morality" (my definition of ethics above is amoral, i.e. non-moral. The "philosophy" I am referring to is one that has evolved in oneself, not one that may be adopted from another although the philosophies of others one comes across certainly do contribute to the evolution of one's own philosophy.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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Re: Is Ethics a Puzzle of Uncertainties?

Post by Good_Egg »

JackDaydream wrote: January 16th, 2022, 4:47 pm Nevertheless, the idea of integrating the shadow is a difficult task. It could be interpreted a bit like Nietzsche's idea of going beyond good and evil, and, in some respects, it has some comparison because it may include an emphasis on the 'niceness' of convention. But, it could be that the path to integration of the shadow in itself paves the way for many mistakes.
One of the messages that we get from our culture is that people who think they are beyond good and evil are in fact evil. And we can see why that might be.

People have a range of desires that include the good and the evil, the helpful and the harmful, the social and the anto-social. Insofar as such terms can be applied to desires rather than to acts.

Ethics - codes of morality, our ideas of right and wrong - act as a filter. Causing us to allow ourselves to act on some of our desires but to refrain - at least sometimes - from acting on those that our code tells us are wrong.

Sometimes we're mistaken and do wrong when we think we're doing right. And sometimes we know something is wrong and do it anyway, because our desire is too strong for our filter to deny it.

But if we throw away the filter, thinking that we're beyond all that now, then we will act on our evil desires as easily as on our good ones. Thus increasing the amount of evil that we do.

I'm not quite sure what "integrating the shadow" looks like. I tend to see it in terms of recognising and acknowledging to ourselves all our impulses, desires and motives. So we don't deceive ourselves that our intent is always good.

But maybe what's meant is something else entirely ?
"Opinions are fiercest.. ..when the evidence to support or refute them is weakest" - Druin Burch
Gertie
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Re: Is Ethics a Puzzle of Uncertainties?

Post by Gertie »

JackDaydream wrote: January 14th, 2022, 11:23 am I have been thinking about the nature of ethics in relation to uncertainty. William De Witt Hyde, in 'Practical Ethics', said, 'Ethics is the science of conduct and the art of life?' It can be asked what are the variables which come into play in this art?

One aspect is the debate between moral absolutism and moral relativism. Thomas Aquinas spoke of natural law in morality. Immanuel Kant argued for the existence of a priori principles, especially in his idea of the categorical imperative, which involves considering one's own choices being put into action on a universal scale. However, while some writers have suggested clear ways of establishing ethics, it does appear that moral codes vary culturally.

Moral choices also involve internal factors of conscience and virtue, related to the nature of duty. Also, it involves thinking of the consequences of action. This is the debate between duty based, deontological ethics and the utilitarian approaches. The idea of duty is connected to the understanding of morality as a basis for choice in contrast to that of consideration of choices. Generally, I am more inclined to an thinking about ethics in relation to the importance of consequences of acts.

That is where I began wondering about the nature of uncertainty and choice, while reading, 'The Black Swan: The Impact of the Highly Improbable', by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. His idea of the black swan is about the way in which exceptions arise in the course of nature and social life. His argument is:
'Almost everything in social life is produced by rare but consequential shocks and jumps; all the while almost everything studied about social life focuses on the "normal", particularly with the "bell curve" inference that tell you close to nothing. Why? Because the bell curve ignores large deviations, cannot handle them, yet makes us confident that we have tamed them.'

I hope that what I have written is not too vague or abstract, but I am thinking about how uncertainty is juggled in moral choices. Human beings are weighing up the effects of action amidst so much uncertainty. I have thought about that in regard to the decisions and policies made in relation to the pandemic and about the environment and climate change. However, unpredictability also looms before the individual, with choices about the consequences of one's behaviour in one's own life and that of others people and forms of life. It is about thinking in a fog of the unknown future So, I am asking what do you think about ethics in relation to the idea and existence of uncertainty?
Good points well made. You're right, a consequentialist moral theory has to deal with uncertainty, and actions can unforseen consequences. We're not omniscient, this applies to all actions, but we can use the info available to try to avoid unwanted consequences. The worse the anticpated bad consequences might be, the more cautious or risk averse it's sensible to be. But we'd be paralysed if we let the worry of black swans overwhelm us, so we just have to muddle through and do our best.

I don't think deontology or virtue ethics escape the problem of unforseen consequences, they effectively just ignore it on the basis of overall it's for the best.

I'd rather grapple with consequences in the context of the particular situation. But to do so you need some moral foundation to guide your decisions and actions in a situation, and to judge consequences against, and to help avoid future similar mistakes - to do better.


We don't have the sort of accepted, authoritative, universal moral foundation we need for that in our modern, globalist world. A world where ''God is dead'' and science tells us our moral intuitions are simply a happenstance of evolutionary utility. We're currently in a post-modernist limbo, and there's a job of work to be done by moral philosophy to help us out. But expectations of perfection in practice in an uncertain world is out of our reach.
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