Personal Space; can we have it?

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Re: Personal Space; can we have it?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Sushan wrote: April 12th, 2022, 4:15 am But most importantly do you think the only necessity to experience peace is physical?
Oh no, I don't. But I feel that the easiest way to approach that kind of peace often starts with "physical" calm and quiet. I'm sure there are other ways too.
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Re: Personal Space; can we have it?

Post by Sushan »

Angelo Cannata wrote: April 12th, 2022, 5:35 am
Sushan wrote: April 12th, 2022, 4:06 am
Angelo Cannata wrote: April 10th, 2022, 5:15 pm I think that, if you realize that you are your personal space, then you will be interested in protecting, exploring and cultivating it.
If 'we are' our personal space then what we do throughout our lives are to maintain our personal space. I can agree with personal space and inner ppeace lying within one's self. But, I am sorry, I cannot understand we are being our personal space.
If your personal space is reduced to zero, then you have no time to think, no way to act, no way to be aware of anything, you are just a dead object. If you react to this, this happens because there is still a space were your ability to react and to protect yourself has still been preserved. That minimum original space is just you. You cannot protect your space if there isn't already an amount of space were you exist, that coincides with you.
I see your point. But I think the ability to think is preserved even you are under a tyrant, although the ability to talk and act can be reduced nearly to zero under such circumstances. Having complete autonomy over one's self too is peaceful, but it is hard to achieve these days. So I think what you mention is a start, but the inner peace goes way beyond that.
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Re: Personal Space; can we have it?

Post by Angelo Cannata »

The ability to think is preserved, but it can become distorted in terrible ways, so that it can even happen that the victim treats the tyrant as her saviour, against all evidence of the oppression she is receiving.

About inner peace, I agree that it can be reached only when you can achieve the highest levels of connection with yourself, but the term "peace" is suspicious to me: it contains the assumption that there is some kind of war, conflict in us, and that the ideal is in being without conflict. Let me say that, to my suspicious mind, an ideal of too much peace means just being dead, "resting in peace". I don't want to rest in peace, I want wonderful activities and experiences and even conflicts, as long as conflicts are often the consequence of being a hero, a victim of the world that fights against your work to build rich life, like certain famous people, like Gandhi, Socrates, Jesus.
Instead of peace, I consider, as richer ideals, growing, continuously building better life, spirituality, work to create better and better freedom, culture, research, exploring the self and so on.
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Re: Personal Space; can we have it?

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Sy Borg wrote: April 12th, 2022, 6:09 am The Sweet once sang that love is like oxygen. For me, personal space is like oxygen.

This is how I see love: I was at a party about 40 years ago. It was late, I was wasted, the house was dimly lit, and I was looking for something to eat. There was a delectable-looking wedge on a plate, untouched. Bingo! Chocolate cake! I took a bite. It turned out to be a chunk of liverwurst. At first I thought the cake must have decomposed into a foul, fungal mass until the penny dropped. Love is liverwurst pretending to be chocolate cake.

Anecdotes aside, personal space will become ever more difficult to achieve. Personal space is easier to find in Dakota than Delhi.
I agree with what you said, personal space is like oxygen, and sometimes we get the urge to experience it so bad and even the presence of our most loved ones can become an annoyance. And, yes, it will be more easier to experience in a calm and quite environment than a busy city.

But I am not sure about what you said about love 🙄
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Re: Personal Space; can we have it?

Post by Sushan »

Pattern-chaser wrote: April 12th, 2022, 7:50 am
Sushan wrote: April 12th, 2022, 4:15 am But most importantly do you think the only necessity to experience peace is physical?
Oh no, I don't. But I feel that the easiest way to approach that kind of peace often starts with "physical" calm and quiet. I'm sure there are other ways too.
I can agree with that. We see very often people going to places like jungles and beaches where they can spend some time alone and clear their minds. Whether they have a clear idea about inner peace or not is still questionable, but what they do must be actually helping them to relax and get some inner peace.
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Re: Personal Space; can we have it?

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Angelo Cannata wrote: April 15th, 2022, 2:32 am The ability to think is preserved, but it can become distorted in terrible ways, so that it can even happen that the victim treats the tyrant as her saviour, against all evidence of the oppression she is receiving.

About inner peace, I agree that it can be reached only when you can achieve the highest levels of connection with yourself, but the term "peace" is suspicious to me: it contains the assumption that there is some kind of war, conflict in us, and that the ideal is in being without conflict. Let me say that, to my suspicious mind, an ideal of too much peace means just being dead, "resting in peace". I don't want to rest in peace, I want wonderful activities and experiences and even conflicts, as long as conflicts are often the consequence of being a hero, a victim of the world that fights against your work to build rich life, like certain famous people, like Gandhi, Socrates, Jesus.
Instead of peace, I consider, as richer ideals, growing, continuously building better life, spirituality, work to create better and better freedom, culture, research, exploring the self and so on.
Yes, under a tyrant your thoughts can be very well distorted, and North Korea and its people can be shown as the best example for this.

Too much peace can be harmful if it goes hand in hand with lethargy. Yes, we need some amount of mental conflicts and pressure to be more courageous, thoughtful, learn, research, take leaps of faith, and ultimately thrive. But too much or too constant conflicts can affect our productivity badly. So a balance between the two is necessary. And it is good if we can actually rest in peace with our death as a successful person who reached his/her dreams and goals.
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Re: Personal Space; can we have it?

Post by Angelo Cannata »

Sushan wrote: April 16th, 2022, 10:38 pm too much or too constant conflicts can affect our productivity badly. So a balance between the two is necessary. And it is good if we can actually rest in peace with our death as a successful person who reached his/her dreams and goals.
I agree, we are humans, we are unable to bear the weight of too many things, we need also a certain amount of peace, space.
I would just add that the balance needs to be dynamic, ever evolving, ever trying to improve towards better and maybe unknown and unexpected ways and levels: a static balance is death. We never know the wonders that humanity is able to make; I disagree with those who think they know what this wonders are and how to make them. We can just make attempts and see how they work, while taking in account all the experience that we already have.

I wonder if “a successful person who reached his/her dreams and goals” did ever exist and if it is a good ideal: from another perspective, I consider better to feel unsuccessful, failed, because this means always questioning what we have reached, never resting on something dead, always looking for further steps, for better horizons.
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Re: Personal Space; can we have it?

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Sushan wrote: April 10th, 2022, 12:57 am
How practical is it to experience this personal space (or inner peace or inner stillness, etc.) in today's interconnected world? More importantly is it practical to have a very own personal space when you are in a relationship, though we might always feel the need for it?
It's almost difficult to find a quiet personal space. In HCOL areas, people would have roommates, partners, or entire family sharing living spaces. And creating a personal space is not just finding a place to hang. You do want it to store your few precious meaningful items, especially if you have a hobby. Public parks? No way! Secluded isolated space ?-- transients and homeless abound.

I have my own personal space -- I do for a long time now. It's worth it -- it helps with your tranquility and spirituality. It's almost like you become possessive of it, it competes with getting a partner. Your personal space becomes your partner.
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Re: Personal Space; can we have it?

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Angelo Cannata wrote: April 17th, 2022, 7:48 am
Sushan wrote: April 16th, 2022, 10:38 pm too much or too constant conflicts can affect our productivity badly. So a balance between the two is necessary. And it is good if we can actually rest in peace with our death as a successful person who reached his/her dreams and goals.
I agree, we are humans, we are unable to bear the weight of too many things, we need also a certain amount of peace, space.
I would just add that the balance needs to be dynamic, ever evolving, ever trying to improve towards better and maybe unknown and unexpected ways and levels: a static balance is death. We never know the wonders that humanity is able to make; I disagree with those who think they know what this wonders are and how to make them. We can just make attempts and see how they work, while taking in account all the experience that we already have.

I wonder if “a successful person who reached his/her dreams and goals” did ever exist and if it is a good ideal: from another perspective, I consider better to feel unsuccessful, failed, because this means always questioning what we have reached, never resting on something dead, always looking for further steps, for better horizons.
Balance is important in both success and failure. Some of successful people may think it is enough what they achieved and may not try to thrive further. But if that thought goes more towards lethargy or negativity the success will be reversed in no time.

Those who have actually failed, or the ones who always think that they can and have to do more have the chance and opportunity to grow more. But if they develop depressing thoughts by thinking that success is relative and achieving whatever the goal won't be enough, that will lead them to their doom.
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Re: Personal Space; can we have it?

Post by Sushan »

Elephant wrote: April 17th, 2022, 11:18 pm
Sushan wrote: April 10th, 2022, 12:57 am
How practical is it to experience this personal space (or inner peace or inner stillness, etc.) in today's interconnected world? More importantly is it practical to have a very own personal space when you are in a relationship, though we might always feel the need for it?
It's almost difficult to find a quiet personal space. In HCOL areas, people would have roommates, partners, or entire family sharing living spaces. And creating a personal space is not just finding a place to hang. You do want it to store your few precious meaningful items, especially if you have a hobby. Public parks? No way! Secluded isolated space ?-- transients and homeless abound.

I have my own personal space -- I do for a long time now. It's worth it -- it helps with your tranquility and spirituality. It's almost like you become possessive of it, it competes with getting a partner. Your personal space becomes your partner.
What you said reminded me of a novel that I read recently, a translation of a novel written by Gustave Flaubert, in which the drug dispenser keeping his inner drug store as his personal shrine. He does not even let his servant to sweep it ad he does it all by himself. But one day when his servant boy accidentally goes in their he gets really angry and scods him. When going after peace we may be possessed by certain things, and that may lead to 'overprotectiveness', which will lead to further problems.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Re: Personal Space; can we have it?

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Sushan wrote: April 21st, 2022, 10:22 pm When going after peace we may be possessed by certain things, and that may lead to 'overprotectiveness', which will lead to further problems.
If we actually analyze the want of peaceful, private space, it is in essence an exercise of shutting the world out. We may not admit it or recognize it, but it is keeping yourself only to yourself. In a way, selfishness.

Still, I would not trade it for the world.

But I remember a small incident that happened at work. I shut my phone off in my office and hid it in the drawer to avoid interruptions. A coworker left before me. Twenty minutes later I left the office and went down to the parking structure, only to find her stuck there with her car, which failed to start. I asked, 'why didn't you call me?'. She said I was calling you, you didn't answer.
I was overcome with guilt -- what if she was being assaulted?
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Re: Personal Space; can we have it?

Post by Angelo Cannata »

Elephant wrote: April 23rd, 2022, 2:16 am I was overcome with guilt -- what if she was being assaulted?
You are right, we need to take our responsibilities. But we cannot use this criterion 24 hour a day, 7 days a week: we cannot save the world.
We need moments when the world must be cut out, as much as possible.

Then I see another problem: having our space, and silence, and peace, is nothing if we don't know how to make use of it. I am not sure that traditional great spiritual masters did really the best: sometimes their words looked really closed minded to me.

So, I would think that, more than being able to have great space for meditation, peace and silence, what is important is an attitude of self-criticism, to be cultivated 60 minutes per hour, 24 hours, 7 days, a real total commitment. Then, space for silence will be obtained as an expression of criticism towards the noisy and shallow life of the world.
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Re: Personal Space; can we have it?

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Elephant wrote: April 23rd, 2022, 2:16 am
Sushan wrote: April 21st, 2022, 10:22 pm When going after peace we may be possessed by certain things, and that may lead to 'overprotectiveness', which will lead to further problems.
If we actually analyze the want of peaceful, private space, it is in essence an exercise of shutting the world out. We may not admit it or recognize it, but it is keeping yourself only to yourself. In a way, selfishness.

Still, I would not trade it for the world.

But I remember a small incident that happened at work. I shut my phone off in my office and hid it in the drawer to avoid interruptions. A coworker left before me. Twenty minutes later I left the office and went down to the parking structure, only to find her stuck there with her car, which failed to start. I asked, 'why didn't you call me?'. She said I was calling you, you didn't answer.
I was overcome with guilt -- what if she was being assaulted?
Let me share a saying that I passed along to students and junior partners during my career: "you can't take care of patients, if you don't take care of yourself ".
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Personal Space; can we have it?

Post by Elephant »

Angelo Cannata wrote: April 23rd, 2022, 11:51 am
You are right, we need to take our responsibilities. But we cannot use this criterion 24 hour a day, 7 days a week: we cannot save the world.
We need moments when the world must be cut out, as much as possible.
Yeah, I share this thought.
LuckyR wrote: April 24th, 2022, 3:57 am "you can't take care of patients, if you don't take care of yourself
Absolutely!
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