Oh, you may be in several. If you're a member of a jazz band, a football team, a model airplane club, a farmers' coop, or even such organizations as Greenpeace or the NRA or the Kiwanis, you're in a collective. But not by merely being a "member of society."
Will racism ever be over?
-
- Posts: 4696
- Joined: February 1st, 2017, 1:06 am
Re: Will racism ever be over?
-
- Posts: 2138
- Joined: May 9th, 2012, 3:13 pm
Re: Will racism ever be over?
- Pattern-chaser
- Premium Member
- Posts: 8268
- Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
- Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
- Location: England
Re: Will racism ever be over?
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2022, 8:17 am No. If the position requires English language skills, the only racist thing one might do is to assume that a "dark-skinned" applicant does not have these skills. No "collectivist" would say otherwise, I don't think.
I wasn't aware of asserting much here. I assert my opinions, as my opinions, but so what? What are the "unfounded assertions" that you have detected, please?
"Who cares, wins"
- Pattern-chaser
- Premium Member
- Posts: 8268
- Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
- Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
- Location: England
Re: Will racism ever be over?
OK, then just call them a "group", as you have here. The sense I intended is unchanged.
"Who cares, wins"
-
- Posts: 4696
- Joined: February 1st, 2017, 1:06 am
- Sculptor1
- Posts: 7091
- Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am
Re: Will racism ever be over?
It an interesting question which you have failed to ask me in respect to my atheism.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑November 24th, 2022, 11:07 amPattern-chaser wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2022, 8:17 am No. If the position requires English language skills, the only racist thing one might do is to assume that a "dark-skinned" applicant does not have these skills. No "collectivist" would say otherwise, I don't think.I wasn't aware of asserting much here. I assert my opinions, as my opinions, but so what? What are the "unfounded assertions" that you have detected, please?
But..
I never waste my time with people who are so illogical
- Pattern-chaser
- Premium Member
- Posts: 8268
- Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
- Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
- Location: England
Re: Will racism ever be over?
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2022, 8:17 am No. If the position requires English language skills, the only racist thing one might do is to assume that a "dark-skinned" applicant does not have these skills. No "collectivist" would say otherwise, I don't think.
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑November 24th, 2022, 11:07 am What are the "unfounded assertions" that you have detected, please?
So your comment was BS; I wasn't quite sure.
"Who cares, wins"
- Sculptor1
- Posts: 7091
- Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am
Re: Will racism ever be over?
It would be illogical of you to say that.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑November 24th, 2022, 1:28 pmPattern-chaser wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2022, 8:17 am No. If the position requires English language skills, the only racist thing one might do is to assume that a "dark-skinned" applicant does not have these skills. No "collectivist" would say otherwise, I don't think.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑November 24th, 2022, 11:07 am What are the "unfounded assertions" that you have detected, please?
So your comment was BS; I wasn't quite sure.
-
- Posts: 782
- Joined: January 27th, 2022, 5:12 am
Re: Will racism ever be over?
Seems to me that the jazz band and the football team are groups because the members communicate and take collective decisions.
The difference between those groups and the whole nation is partly one of scale, and partly that belonging to society is essentially involuntary. Most of the French people have not chosen to be French, they were just born there.
Can there be an involuntary group ? Yes. The residents of a POW camp may have strong group bonds and attempt collective action.
The contrast is with mere sets of people (such as the set of left-handers) who have no members-only communication and do not act collectively.
(The involuntariness of being subject to a government is an argument for libertarianism, but that's another topic).
A race is not a group.
- Pattern-chaser
- Premium Member
- Posts: 8268
- Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
- Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
- Location: England
Re: Will racism ever be over?
In general, I agree. But what if brown-skinned people — I won't say "race", as the very existence of 'race' is a myth — employ "members-only communication" and act collectively? They're a group then, aren't they?Good_Egg wrote: ↑November 25th, 2022, 5:17 am I think one can argue that a well-functioning democratic society is a group.
Seems to me that the jazz band and the football team are groups because the members communicate and take collective decisions.
The difference between those groups and the whole nation is partly one of scale, and partly that belonging to society is essentially involuntary. Most of the French people have not chosen to be French, they were just born there.
Can there be an involuntary group ? Yes. The residents of a POW camp may have strong group bonds and attempt collective action.
The contrast is with mere sets of people (such as the set of left-handers) who have no members-only communication and do not act collectively.
(The involuntariness of being subject to a government is an argument for libertarianism, but that's another topic).
A race is not a group.
"Who cares, wins"
-
- Posts: 4696
- Joined: February 1st, 2017, 1:06 am
-
- Posts: 4696
- Joined: February 1st, 2017, 1:06 am
Re: Will racism ever be over?
But they don't --- not the group as a whole. There will be, of course, many subgroups within that group (or any large group) who act collectively, and thus can be called "collectives."Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑November 25th, 2022, 8:51 am
In general, I agree. But what if brown-skinned people — I won't say "race", as the very existence of 'race' is a myth — employ "members-only communication" and act collectively? They're a group then, aren't they?
And you're echoing "progressive" nonsense by claiming race is a "myth." That term is a useful one for describing three broad subpopulations of humans who share "family resemblances" and whose recent evolution occurred in widely separated portions of the planet. It is as valid, and as useful, as distinguishing breeds of dogs, or varieties of roses.
-
- Posts: 4696
- Joined: February 1st, 2017, 1:06 am
Re: Will racism ever be over?
The whole business of taxonomy in biology has been thrown into chaos by the advent of DNA analysis. Previously, species membership was determined by whether a male and female from two distinct populations could interbreed and produce viable, fertile offspring. If those two populations displayed consistent and distinct morphological characteristics, then they might be dubbed two subspecies of the same species. Now the classifications are drawn according to differences in DNA, which is even more arbitrary. Many species of small cats can successfully interbreed, and will if their ranges overlap. Yet based on DNA differences they're deemed different species. The morphological differences between them are no greater than those found among domestic cats, which are considered all the same species.GE Morton wrote: ↑November 25th, 2022, 12:47 pm
And you're echoing "progressive" nonsense by claiming race is a "myth." That term is a useful one for describing three broad subpopulations of humans who share "family resemblances" and whose recent evolution occurred in widely separated portions of the planet. It is as valid, and as useful, as distinguishing breeds of dogs, or varieties of roses.
The DNA of every individual of a species differs from that of all other individuals (identical twins excepted). How much difference must there be to justify a species distinction? How much to justify subspecies distinctions?
Classifying organisms into population groups is descriptively useful, but it shouldn't be an excuse to ignore the many individual differences among members of those groups.
- Pattern-chaser
- Premium Member
- Posts: 8268
- Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
- Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
- Location: England
Re: Will racism ever be over?
Even Merriam-Webster, which I believe to be an American dictionary, lists several meanings, only the second of which is the one you always refer to:
I must admit that the helicopter-related meaning is a new one on me!Merriam-Webster wrote: Collective noun
1: a collective body : group E.g. "a social collective".
2: a cooperative unit or organization. Specifically: collective farm
3: a helicopter control system governing lift
"Who cares, wins"
- Pattern-chaser
- Premium Member
- Posts: 8268
- Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
- Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
- Location: England
Re: Will racism ever be over?
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑November 25th, 2022, 8:51 am In general, I agree. But what if brown-skinned people — I won't say "race", as the very existence of 'race' is a myth — employ "members-only communication" and act collectively? They're a group then, aren't they?
GE Morton wrote: ↑November 25th, 2022, 12:47 pm And you're echoing "progressive" nonsense by claiming race is a "myth." That term is a useful one for describing three broad subpopulations of humans who share "family resemblances" and whose recent evolution occurred in widely separated portions of the planet. It is as valid, and as useful, as distinguishing breeds of dogs, or varieties of roses.
Quoted text taken from here. I am not an expert in 'racial' genetics, but I am happy to accept what those who have studied the subject believe. Aren't you?Wikipedia wrote: Race acquired its modern meaning in the field of physical anthropology through scientific racism starting in the 19th century. With the rise of modern genetics, the concept of distinct human races in a biological sense has become obsolete. In 2019, the American Association of Biological Anthropologists stated: "The belief in 'races' as natural aspects of human biology, and the structures of inequality (racism) that emerge from such beliefs, are among the most damaging elements in the human experience both today and in the past."
"Who cares, wins"
2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month
Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023
Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023