Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often thought?

[MAYA EL]

If you mean that essentially no one supports infanticide, does this suprise you?

There is a spectrum of acceptability and consideration in the issue of abortion. But people tend to set themselves at extremes as they feel that giving way at some point might undermine their argument.
There are three issues.
The desires of the father
The desires of the woman.
and the rights of the potential life.

The wants of the father were once the paramount issue. I submit that consideration to this should be given zero importance, since they are not the ones having to carry the foetus, nor ultimately have responsibility for the upbringing of any child that might result from the pregnancy. This position needs to be relegated to history, though sometimes, when male fundies are spouting one might think that theirs is the only valid opinion.

The second issue is about the needs and rights of women to enjoy their own bodily rights. I find it very hard to find arguments against this, though I would hope that for their own sake and the sake of the potential life within them that abortions are performed in a timely fashion to minimise distress.
The right to command her own body should extend from the moments before conception; the right to take precautions and the right to be free from rape right through to the right to abort any unwanted pregnancy. That choice needs to be hers and hers alone.
Upon what basis could this right be abused or infringed? It seems tragically ironic that those who would defend their rights to bear arms (machines of death) are often the fail to defend a women's right to her own body.
The circumstances of the impregnation is important..

Who amongst us here would condemn a rape victim to carry to full terms the brat of the rapist; to enforce her to carry inside herself the seed of the criminal that abused her?
Who amongst us nhere would condemn a women to carry a mutated monster; to carry on with a pregnancy that risks her own life; or the life of the foetus?
And yet who amongst us here would condone a flippant late stage abortion as a sort of lazy form of contraception?

So men have 0 say in anything and woman is next to God? I smell toxic femininity and it's skunk strong!

People abuse privileges and if we look at the types of people getting abortions it's largely African-American women and not just one they have several each

meaning they're using it kind of like a plan B on steroids clearly abusing technology merely for convenience sake to scrub away the unfortunate side effects of their lack of responsibility

Now of course the last ditch effort reason I always hear is the what about the rape victim

Of course that sucks however the baby did not rape her the baby has no knowledge whatsoever of what happened leading up to its existence therefore it is innocent and I'm not sure how killing somebody helps make up for the fact that the woman was raped? Is all it does is add a murder to the list it doesn't erase the unfortunate action of them being raped

And we have things available at every pharmacy called plan b and usually if a woman is raped and they go to the hospital they are offered one or they can go to Walgreens and pick one up but I digress


And is all banning abortion does is take away the woman's ability to kill her child for convenience sake it does not take away the doctor's ability to decide that an abortion is the best choice of action to save the mother if there's some strange complication so necessity based abortion by the doctor's discretion is still something that can happen the only thing on the table here is the woman's ability to make that decision which I don't think it should have ever become an option in the first place because we always abuse things for convenience sake this is no different and it does get abused more than it gets used properly

[Sculptor1]

If you mean that essentially no one supports infanticide, does this suprise you?

There is a spectrum of acceptability and consideration in the issue of abortion. But people tend to set themselves at extremes as they feel that giving way at some point might undermine their argument.
There are three issues.
The desires of the father
The desires of the woman.
and the rights of the potential life.

The wants of the father were once the paramount issue. I submit that consideration to this should be given zero importance, since they are not the ones having to carry the foetus, nor ultimately have responsibility for the upbringing of any child that might result from the pregnancy. This position needs to be relegated to history, though sometimes, when male fundies are spouting one might think that theirs is the only valid opinion.

The second issue is about the needs and rights of women to enjoy their own bodily rights. I find it very hard to find arguments against this, though I would hope that for their own sake and the sake of the potential life within them that abortions are performed in a timely fashion to minimise distress.
The right to command her own body should extend from the moments before conception; the right to take precautions and the right to be free from rape right through to the right to abort any unwanted pregnancy. That choice needs to be hers and hers alone.
Upon what basis could this right be abused or infringed? It seems tragically ironic that those who would defend their rights to bear arms (machines of death) are often the fail to defend a women's right to her own body.
The circumstances of the impregnation is important..

Who amongst us here would condemn a rape victim to carry to full terms the brat of the rapist; to enforce her to carry inside herself the seed of the criminal that abused her?
Who amongst us nhere would condemn a women to carry a mutated monster; to carry on with a pregnancy that risks her own life; or the life of the foetus?
And yet who amongst us here would condone a flippant late stage abortion as a sort of lazy form of contraception?

So men have 0 say in anything and woman is next to God? I smell toxic femininity and it's skunk strong!

No. I just think bodily autonomy trumps your Christian racism.

People abuse privileges and if we look at the types of people getting abortions it's largely African-American women and not just one they have several each

I smell toxic racism, and it is Hitler strong.
The fact is that race minorities suffer prejudice and poverty.
It should be obvious, even to you, that the reasons are there are not because they are black. It's because people like you are racist.
Despite their difficulties, minority abortion rates have nearly halved in the last 25 years.

meaning they're using it kind of like a plan B on steroids clearly abusing technology merely for convenience sake to scrub away the unfortunate side effects of their lack of responsibility

Most abortions are white, simply because there are more of them. Breeding like rats.

Now of course the last ditch effort reason I always hear is the what about the rape victim

Rape victims are still people.
Or do you think they deserve to be raped?

Of course that sucks however the baby did not rape her the baby has no knowledge whatsoever of what happened leading up to its existence therefore it is innocent and I'm not sure how killing somebody helps make up for the fact that the woman was raped? Is all it does is add a murder to the list it doesn't erase the unfortunate action of them being raped

And we have things available at every pharmacy called plan b and usually if a woman is raped and they go to the hospital they are offered one or they can go to Walgreens and pick one up but I digress

Minorities do not have the same access to hospitals that the white majority have.

And is all banning abortion does is take away the woman's ability to kill her child for convenience sake it does not take away the doctor's ability to decide that an abortion is the best choice of action to save the mother if there's some strange complication so necessity based abortion by the doctor's discretion is still something that can happen the only thing on the table here is the woman's ability to make that decision which I don't think it should have ever become an option in the first place because we always abuse things for convenience sake this is no different and it does get abused more than it gets used properly

You are confused about "a child" and "abortive tissue"

So why do you hate African/American women so much?
Why do you think they do not deserve the same consideration as other humans?

[MAYA EL]

If you mean that essentially no one supports infanticide, does this suprise you?

There is a spectrum of acceptability and consideration in the issue of abortion. But people tend to set themselves at extremes as they feel that giving way at some point might undermine their argument.
There are three issues.
The desires of the father
The desires of the woman.
and the rights of the potential life.

The wants of the father were once the paramount issue. I submit that consideration to this should be given zero importance, since they are not the ones having to carry the foetus, nor ultimately have responsibility for the upbringing of any child that might result from the pregnancy. This position needs to be relegated to history, though sometimes, when male fundies are spouting one might think that theirs is the only valid opinion.

The second issue is about the needs and rights of women to enjoy their own bodily rights. I find it very hard to find arguments against this, though I would hope that for their own sake and the sake of the potential life within them that abortions are performed in a timely fashion to minimise distress.
The right to command her own body should extend from the moments before conception; the right to take precautions and the right to be free from rape right through to the right to abort any unwanted pregnancy. That choice needs to be hers and hers alone.
Upon what basis could this right be abused or infringed? It seems tragically ironic that those who would defend their rights to bear arms (machines of death) are often the fail to defend a women's right to her own body.
The circumstances of the impregnation is important..

Who amongst us here would condemn a rape victim to carry to full terms the brat of the rapist; to enforce her to carry inside herself the seed of the criminal that abused her?
Who amongst us nhere would condemn a women to carry a mutated monster; to carry on with a pregnancy that risks her own life; or the life of the foetus?
And yet who amongst us here would condone a flippant late stage abortion as a sort of lazy form of contraception?

So men have 0 say in anything and woman is next to God? I smell toxic femininity and it's skunk strong!

No. I just think bodily autonomy trumps your Christian racism.

People abuse privileges and if we look at the types of people getting abortions it's largely African-American women and not just one they have several each

I smell toxic racism, and it is Hitler strong.
The fact is that race minorities suffer prejudice and poverty.
It should be obvious, even to you, that the reasons are there are not because they are black. It's because people like you are racist.
Despite their difficulties, minority abortion rates have nearly halved in the last 25 years.

meaning they're using it kind of like a plan B on steroids clearly abusing technology merely for convenience sake to scrub away the unfortunate side effects of their lack of responsibility

Most abortions are white, simply because there are more of them. Breeding like rats.

Now of course the last ditch effort reason I always hear is the what about the rape victim

Rape victims are still people.
Or do you think they deserve to be raped?

Of course that sucks however the baby did not rape her the baby has no knowledge whatsoever of what happened leading up to its existence therefore it is innocent and I'm not sure how killing somebody helps make up for the fact that the woman was raped? Is all it does is add a murder to the list it doesn't erase the unfortunate action of them being raped

And we have things available at every pharmacy called plan b and usually if a woman is raped and they go to the hospital they are offered one or they can go to Walgreens and pick one up but I digress

Minorities do not have the same access to hospitals that the white majority have.

And is all banning abortion does is take away the woman's ability to kill her child for convenience sake it does not take away the doctor's ability to decide that an abortion is the best choice of action to save the mother if there's some strange complication so necessity based abortion by the doctor's discretion is still something that can happen the only thing on the table here is the woman's ability to make that decision which I don't think it should have ever become an option in the first place because we always abuse things for convenience sake this is no different and it does get abused more than it gets used properly

You are confused about "a child" and "abortive tissue"

So why do you hate African/American women so much?
Why do you think they do not deserve the same consideration as other humans?

Well your definitely ideologically possessed and that's putting it lightly
Your also clearly woke and racist
Just because I mentioned what studies said about African American woman doesn't make me racist infact is doesn't say anything about my personal opinion is all it says is what the studies found

You need to not let yourself get so triggered because you will never have a productive conversation with anybody so long as you let yourself get like this

So please either stop creating a fake version of me consisting of all the things that I'm not but all the things that trigger you just set it to the side so we can actually talk and if you can't do that then I'm not going to waste my time with you .

[Sculptor1]

There is a spectrum of acceptability and consideration in the issue of abortion. But people tend to set themselves at extremes as they feel that giving way at some point might undermine their argument.
There are three issues.
The desires of the father
The desires of the woman.
and the rights of the potential life.

The wants of the father were once the paramount issue. I submit that consideration to this should be given zero importance, since they are not the ones having to carry the foetus, nor ultimately have responsibility for the upbringing of any child that might result from the pregnancy. This position needs to be relegated to history, though sometimes, when male fundies are spouting one might think that theirs is the only valid opinion.

The second issue is about the needs and rights of women to enjoy their own bodily rights. I find it very hard to find arguments against this, though I would hope that for their own sake and the sake of the potential life within them that abortions are performed in a timely fashion to minimise distress.
The right to command her own body should extend from the moments before conception; the right to take precautions and the right to be free from rape right through to the right to abort any unwanted pregnancy. That choice needs to be hers and hers alone.
Upon what basis could this right be abused or infringed? It seems tragically ironic that those who would defend their rights to bear arms (machines of death) are often the fail to defend a women's right to her own body.
The circumstances of the impregnation is important..

Who amongst us here would condemn a rape victim to carry to full terms the brat of the rapist; to enforce her to carry inside herself the seed of the criminal that abused her?
Who amongst us nhere would condemn a women to carry a mutated monster; to carry on with a pregnancy that risks her own life; or the life of the foetus?
And yet who amongst us here would condone a flippant late stage abortion as a sort of lazy form of contraception?

So men have 0 say in anything and woman is next to God? I smell toxic femininity and it's skunk strong!

No. I just think bodily autonomy trumps your Christian racism.

People abuse privileges and if we look at the types of people getting abortions it's largely African-American women and not just one they have several each

I smell toxic racism, and it is Hitler strong.
The fact is that race minorities suffer prejudice and poverty.
It should be obvious, even to you, that the reasons are there are not because they are black. It's because people like you are racist.
Despite their difficulties, minority abortion rates have nearly halved in the last 25 years.

meaning they're using it kind of like a plan B on steroids clearly abusing technology merely for convenience sake to scrub away the unfortunate side effects of their lack of responsibility

Most abortions are white, simply because there are more of them. Breeding like rats.

Now of course the last ditch effort reason I always hear is the what about the rape victim

Rape victims are still people.
Or do you think they deserve to be raped?

Of course that sucks however the baby did not rape her the baby has no knowledge whatsoever of what happened leading up to its existence therefore it is innocent and I'm not sure how killing somebody helps make up for the fact that the woman was raped? Is all it does is add a murder to the list it doesn't erase the unfortunate action of them being raped

And we have things available at every pharmacy called plan b and usually if a woman is raped and they go to the hospital they are offered one or they can go to Walgreens and pick one up but I digress

Minorities do not have the same access to hospitals that the white majority have.

And is all banning abortion does is take away the woman's ability to kill her child for convenience sake it does not take away the doctor's ability to decide that an abortion is the best choice of action to save the mother if there's some strange complication so necessity based abortion by the doctor's discretion is still something that can happen the only thing on the table here is the woman's ability to make that decision which I don't think it should have ever become an option in the first place because we always abuse things for convenience sake this is no different and it does get abused more than it gets used properly

You are confused about "a child" and "abortive tissue"

So why do you hate African/American women so much?
Why do you think they do not deserve the same consideration as other humans?

Well your definitely ideologically possessed and that's putting it lightly
Your also clearly woke and racist
Just because I mentioned what studies said about African American woman doesn't make me racist infact is doesn't say anything about my personal opinion is all it says is what the studies found

You need to not let yourself get so triggered because you will never have a productive conversation with anybody so long as you let yourself get like this

So please either stop creating a fake version of me consisting of all the things that I'm not but all the things that trigger you just set it to the side so we can actually talk and if you can't do that then I'm not going to waste my time with you .

If you do not think you are racist, then tell us why you think it is important to mention to ethnicity of women who have abortions?
What difference does that make to you?

[MAYA EL]

So men have 0 say in anything and woman is next to God? I smell toxic femininity and it's skunk strong!

No. I just think bodily autonomy trumps your Christian racism.

People abuse privileges and if we look at the types of people getting abortions it's largely African-American women and not just one they have several each

I smell toxic racism, and it is Hitler strong.
The fact is that race minorities suffer prejudice and poverty.
It should be obvious, even to you, that the reasons are there are not because they are black. It's because people like you are racist.
Despite their difficulties, minority abortion rates have nearly halved in the last 25 years.

meaning they're using it kind of like a plan B on steroids clearly abusing technology merely for convenience sake to scrub away the unfortunate side effects of their lack of responsibility

Most abortions are white, simply because there are more of them. Breeding like rats.

Now of course the last ditch effort reason I always hear is the what about the rape victim

Rape victims are still people.
Or do you think they deserve to be raped?

Of course that sucks however the baby did not rape her the baby has no knowledge whatsoever of what happened leading up to its existence therefore it is innocent and I'm not sure how killing somebody helps make up for the fact that the woman was raped? Is all it does is add a murder to the list it doesn't erase the unfortunate action of them being raped

And we have things available at every pharmacy called plan b and usually if a woman is raped and they go to the hospital they are offered one or they can go to Walgreens and pick one up but I digress

Minorities do not have the same access to hospitals that the white majority have.

And is all banning abortion does is take away the woman's ability to kill her child for convenience sake it does not take away the doctor's ability to decide that an abortion is the best choice of action to save the mother if there's some strange complication so necessity based abortion by the doctor's discretion is still something that can happen the only thing on the table here is the woman's ability to make that decision which I don't think it should have ever become an option in the first place because we always abuse things for convenience sake this is no different and it does get abused more than it gets used properly

You are confused about "a child" and "abortive tissue"

So why do you hate African/American women so much?
Why do you think they do not deserve the same consideration as other humans?

Well your definitely ideologically possessed and that's putting it lightly
Your also clearly woke and racist
Just because I mentioned what studies said about African American woman doesn't make me racist infact is doesn't say anything about my personal opinion is all it says is what the studies found

You need to not let yourself get so triggered because you will never have a productive conversation with anybody so long as you let yourself get like this

So please either stop creating a fake version of me consisting of all the things that I'm not but all the things that trigger you just set it to the side so we can actually talk and if you can't do that then I'm not going to waste my time with you .

If you do not think you are racist, then tell us why you think it is important to mention to ethnicity of women who have abortions?
What difference does that make to you?

Because specific cultures are targeted for specific reasons for all kinds of things like studies or sales of different things and I'm trying to use the common lingo that we are all hopefully going to understand
I mean I could of said that 90somthing percent of getto good woman
Instead of using the word "African American" but you probably would of had a problem with that too

And get off your high horse African Americans are not so special that people aren't aloud to even mention them that's crazy and you need to sit your racist butt down and eat some humble pie because we're all the same species theirs only 1 human race and you constantly making an issue and pointing out skin color to try and cause division is a racist thing to do and that crap needs to just stop

[Sculptor1]

If you do not think you are racist, then tell us why you think it is important to mention to ethnicity of women who have abortions?
What difference does that make to you?

Because specific cultures are targeted for specific reasons for all kinds of things like studies or sales of different things and I'm trying to use the common lingo that we are all hopefully going to understand
I mean I could of said that 90somthing percent of getto good woman
Instead of using the word "African American" but you probably would of had a problem with that too

And get off your high horse African Americans are not so special that people aren't aloud to even mention them that's crazy and you need to sit your racist butt down and eat some humble pie because we're all the same species theirs only 1 human race and you constantly making an issue and pointing out skin color to try and cause division is a racist thing to do and that crap needs to just stop

um irrelevant.

Yes, that confirms it you are a racist,
You are just too thick to know it.
This thread is about how divisive or not abortion is - you just made it a race issue.

[N693]

My position is that all innocent human beings have an equal right to life regardless of birth status. Why would that be incorrect?

[LuckyR]

My position is that all innocent human beings have an equal right to life regardless of birth status. Why would that be incorrect?

Several things. No one is in a position to declare your opinion "incorrect". Though as you are likely aware, your stated opinion is not shared by a majority of folks in the West. But I have no problem with you living your life exactly by that opinion.

[N693]

LuckyR,

So it's just a matter of private opinion? Suppose I said it's fine that you oppose killing toddlers, but your opinion should not infringe on the right of others to do so. Would that be a good argument? Why or why not?

[MAYA EL]

If you do not think you are racist, then tell us why you think it is important to mention to ethnicity of women who have abortions?
What difference does that make to you?

Because specific cultures are targeted for specific reasons for all kinds of things like studies or sales of different things and I'm trying to use the common lingo that we are all hopefully going to understand
I mean I could of said that 90somthing percent of getto good woman
Instead of using the word "African American" but you probably would of had a problem with that too

And get off your high horse African Americans are not so special that people aren't aloud to even mention them that's crazy and you need to sit your racist butt down and eat some humble pie because we're all the same species theirs only 1 human race and you constantly making an issue and pointing out skin color to try and cause division is a racist thing to do and that crap needs to just stop

um irrelevant.

Yes, that confirms it you are a racist,
You are just too thick to know it.
This thread is about how divisive or not abortion is - you just made it a race issue.

Um no stop glorifying toxic African American identity inorder to side step the topic , I'm done talking to your woke worthless toxic self if you're going to try and side step the topic with racism when I just telling you what studies have said because one of the parameters observed in all kinds of studies is how X effects the different demographs and that's not a racist thing at all so you need to ask yourself why you keep trying to play the victim race card because it makes you not just a fool but a racist so I'm done with you you may have the last word

[LuckyR]

LuckyR,

So it's just a matter of private opinion? Suppose I said it's fine that you oppose killing toddlers, but your opinion should not infringe on the right of others to do so. Would that be a good argument? Why or why not?

I'm a little confused. You describe your opinion, then ask for criticism of it. I defend your opinion against criticism and support your living by your opinion. Yet you seem to have a problem with my comments.

As to your question, there is a significant difference between your Original opinion (that we're speaking of) and your new toddler Strawman, namely that abortion is in fact legal and consistent with ethical standards in the majority of the West, whereas infanticide is universally illégal and a violation of ethical standards.

[N693]

LuckyR,

So it's just a matter of private opinion? Suppose I said it's fine that you oppose killing toddlers, but your opinion should not infringe on the right of others to do so. Would that be a good argument? Why or why not?

I'm a little confused. You describe your opinion, then ask for criticism of it. I defend your opinion against criticism and support your living by your opinion. Yet you seem to have a problem with my comments.

As to your question, there is a significant difference between your Original opinion (that we're speaking of) and your new toddler Strawman, namely that abortion is in fact legal and consistent with ethical standards in the majority of the West, whereas infanticide is universally illégal and a violation of ethical standards.

My original post states that I claim all humans have an equal right to life. That means it should be recognized by the laws that govern society, not merely one private opinion among others. If one wants to argue that my claim is merely an opinion among equals, I ask them to defend their claim by giving a reason that the unborn do not have a right to life, but the born do.

[Sculptor1]

If you do not think you are racist, then tell us why you think it is important to mention to ethnicity of women who have abortions?
What difference does that make to you?

Because specific cultures are targeted for specific reasons for all kinds of things like studies or sales of different things and I'm trying to use the common lingo that we are all hopefully going to understand
I mean I could of said that 90somthing percent of getto good woman
Instead of using the word "African American" but you probably would of had a problem with that too

And get off your high horse African Americans are not so special that people aren't aloud to even mention them that's crazy and you need to sit your racist butt down and eat some humble pie because we're all the same species theirs only 1 human race and you constantly making an issue and pointing out skin color to try and cause division is a racist thing to do and that crap needs to just stop

um irrelevant.

Yes, that confirms it you are a racist,
You are just too thick to know it.
This thread is about how divisive or not abortion is - you just made it a race issue.

Um no stop glorifying toxic African American identity inorder to side step the topic ,

It seem you are obsessed with what ever the hell " toxic African American identity " is. Seriously WTF are you talking about?

I'm done talking to your woke worthless toxic self if you're going to try and side step the topic with racism

I suggest you find a different Forum since this one is moderated. If you can't play nicely then you have no place here.
You might want to take your care prejudice to Trump's social media or somewhere else they think denigrating a specific population is acceptable.

when I just telling you what studies have said because one of the parameters observed in all kinds of studies is how X effects the different demographs and that's not a racist thing at all so you need to ask yourself why you keep trying to play the victim race card because it makes you not just a fool but a racist so I'm done with you you may have the last word

Yes, I'm sure some of your best friends are black too, eh?

[LuckyR]

LuckyR,

So it's just a matter of private opinion? Suppose I said it's fine that you oppose killing toddlers, but your opinion should not infringe on the right of others to do so. Would that be a good argument? Why or why not?

I'm a little confused. You describe your opinion, then ask for criticism of it. I defend your opinion against criticism and support your living by your opinion. Yet you seem to have a problem with my comments.

As to your question, there is a significant difference between your Original opinion (that we're speaking of) and your new toddler Strawman, namely that abortion is in fact legal and consistent with ethical standards in the majority of the West, whereas infanticide is universally illégal and a violation of ethical standards.

My original post states that I claim all humans have an equal right to life. That means it should be recognized by the laws that govern society, not merely one private opinion among others. If one wants to argue that my claim is merely an opinion among equals, I ask them to defend their claim by giving a reason that the unborn do not have a right to life, but the born do.

Uummm... no. You noting: "I claim..." does not mean "it should be recognized by the laws that govern society".

Therefore you have the burden to show that your opinion is NOT merely an opinion among others (definitely more popular, perhaps more logical, than yours).

[N693]

LuckyR,

So it's just a matter of private opinion? Suppose I said it's fine that you oppose killing toddlers, but your opinion should not infringe on the right of others to do so. Would that be a good argument? Why or why not?

I'm a little confused. You describe your opinion, then ask for criticism of it. I defend your opinion against criticism and support your living by your opinion. Yet you seem to have a problem with my comments.

As to your question, there is a significant difference between your Original opinion (that we're speaking of) and your new toddler Strawman, namely that abortion is in fact legal and consistent with ethical standards in the majority of the West, whereas infanticide is universally illégal and a violation of ethical standards.

My original post states that I claim all humans have an equal right to life. That means it should be recognized by the laws that govern society, not merely one private opinion among others. If one wants to argue that my claim is merely an opinion among equals, I ask them to defend their claim by giving a reason that the unborn do not have a right to life, but the born do.

Uummm... no. You noting: "I claim..." does not mean "it should be recognized by the laws that govern society".

Therefore you have the burden to show that your opinion is NOT merely an opinion among others (definitely more popular, perhaps more logical, than yours).

Why should I think the pro-abortion view is more popular? Whether it is or not, why would truth be dependent on popularity? At one time slavery was popular, did that make it ok?

It is my very point that contriving some criteria to justify killing some given group of innocent humans is the opposite of logical.

Humans have always had laws against the killing of innocent persons, yet you think it's my burden of proof to justify a departure from this rule? Do I have a burden to prove that any other group--say toddlers--has a right to life? Look, if you don't want to discuss it, or are unable to defend the contrary position, that's fine, but maybe someone else does.