Log In   or  Sign Up for Free

Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Philosophy Club

Philosophy Discussion Forums
A Humans-Only Philosophy Club

The Philosophy Forums at OnlinePhilosophyClub.com aim to be an oasis of intelligent in-depth civil debate and discussion. Topics discussed extend far beyond philosophy and philosophers. What makes us a philosophy forum is more about our approach to the discussions than what subject is being debated. Common topics include but are absolutely not limited to neuroscience, psychology, sociology, cosmology, religion, political theory, ethics, and so much more.

This is a humans-only philosophy club. We strictly prohibit bots and AIs from joining.


Discuss morality and ethics in this message board.
Featured Article: Philosophical Analysis of Abortion, The Right to Life, and Murder
User avatar
By Sy Borg
#468712
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 8th, 2024, 7:33 am
Sy Borg wrote: October 7th, 2024, 4:18 pm Humans have always been violent. Skulls of early hominids commonly showed signs of a violent demise. Other highly intelligent animals, such as chimps (our closest relative) and dolphins are also notably violent. All three species are predators. Predators, by basically definition, prey on those whom they can overpower.

The world is an inherently violent place - it's a matter of kill or be killed. The biosphere has basically eaten itself into sophistication over around 3.8 billion years. Warfare was common in hunter gatherer groups and it continues to be more common, if less ubiquitous.

However, there is a survival advantage to cooperation. Large cooperative groups will defeat more fractured groups. So more large groups with specialised roles will proliferate than smaller, less cooperative ones. Instead of committing violence personally, most denizens of huge human colonies now only perform violence by proxy via the military, police, farms, slaughterhouses, prisons, security firms, etc. But the violence is still ours, committed every day on our behalf.

As a matter of interest, I created the first "professional looking" anti-bullying website on the net to seriously consider and analyse the legal aspects of workplace bullying, and also designed graphic anti-bullying posters. It's one of the few times I've made myself useful in this life.
This is disturbing, but I can't fault it. It's emerging that we think bullying is intrinsic to humanity. And so it is reasonable to assume we're not going to get rid of it any time soon. Our only saving grace is that co-operation, even in the context of bullying, is also what we do. But I am disappointed to consciously realise that bullying is not some childish aberration that we grow out of, it's something that most mature adults also employ widely. 😢
I disagree with the idea that bullying is "something that most mature adults also employ widely". I only bully insects and larvae that encroach my space. I assume that you and Mo don't bully other chordates either (maybe mice and rats in some circumstances). Why not?

Because, as per my above post, other people have the role of bullying so that societies can survive. Our proxies bully so that the rest of us don't have to.

There are things that can be done to reduce bullying within society - like changing schooling to reduce exposure of vulnerable children to bullies - but these usually end up in the too-hard-basket, and vested interests will resist such changes.
#468718
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 8th, 2024, 7:33 am It's emerging that we think bullying is intrinsic to humanity. And so it is reasonable to assume we're not going to get rid of it any time soon. Our only saving grace is that co-operation, even in the context of bullying, is also what we do. But I am disappointed to consciously realise that bullying is not some childish aberration that we grow out of, it's something that most mature adults also employ widely. 😢
Mo_reese wrote: October 8th, 2024, 12:42 pm Why is bullying tolerated or IMO in some cases encouraged?
I haven't a clue! But bullying does seem to be ... endemic?


Sy Borg wrote: October 8th, 2024, 10:37 pm as per my above post, other people have the role of bullying so that societies can survive.
Sorry, I can't see how that works. Societies need bullies and bullying in order to "survive"? 😮



I'm starting to think in a little more depth about this. I wonder, what is the *purpose* of bullying? What is it intended to achieve? Anything? Or just misery for the victim — is that what it's about? Is bullying a mild form of psychopathy? [Psychopaths *enjoy* hurting others, and gain pleasure from it...]
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus Location: England
#468720
As well as being a cooperative species we are also a competitive species. People throw their weight around as they vie for mates, dominance, wealth, power and glory. And it's not just humans who behave like this. In the competitive game of life there must be winners and losers. I'm not saying it's "right". It's just the way it is.
Favorite Philosopher: Hume Nietzsche Location: Antipodes
User avatar
By Sy Borg
#468731
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 9th, 2024, 7:23 am
Sy Borg wrote: October 8th, 2024, 10:37 pm as per my above post, other people have the role of bullying so that societies can survive.
Sorry, I can't see how that works. Societies need bullies and bullying in order to "survive"? 😮

I'm starting to think in a little more depth about this. I wonder, what is the *purpose* of bullying? What is it intended to achieve? Anything? Or just misery for the victim — is that what it's about? Is bullying a mild form of psychopathy? [Psychopaths *enjoy* hurting others, and gain pleasure from it...]
Two quick examples. Farming requires the bullying of other species. Keeping dangerous prisoners away from the community requires bullying of inmates.

Just because you personally are not doing society's work does not mean that your hands are clean. Being on planet Earth means either killing and/or exploiting other organisms or dying. Whether that killing and exploitation is individual or done by proxy is a moot point, in context.
#468743
Sy Borg wrote: October 8th, 2024, 10:37 pm as per my above post, other people have the role of bullying so that societies can survive.
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 9th, 2024, 7:23 am Sorry, I can't see how that works. Societies need bullies and bullying in order to "survive"? 😮

I'm starting to think in a little more depth about this. I wonder, what is the *purpose* of bullying? What is it intended to achieve? Anything? Or just misery for the victim — is that what it's about? Is bullying a mild form of psychopathy? [Psychopaths *enjoy* hurting others, and gain pleasure from it...]
Sy Borg wrote: October 9th, 2024, 7:07 pm Two quick examples. Farming requires the bullying of other species. Keeping dangerous prisoners away from the community requires bullying of inmates.

Just because you personally are not doing society's work does not mean that your hands are clean. Being on planet Earth means either killing and/or exploiting other organisms or dying. Whether that killing and exploitation is individual or done by proxy is a moot point, in context.
This isn't "bullying", as I understand it. It doesn't seem to square with any of the definitions I found, either. What you describe is ... I'm not sure of the right word, but it doesn't feel like it should be "bullying", to me.
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus Location: England
User avatar
By Sy Borg
#468773
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 10th, 2024, 7:41 am
Sy Borg wrote: October 8th, 2024, 10:37 pm as per my above post, other people have the role of bullying so that societies can survive.
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 9th, 2024, 7:23 am Sorry, I can't see how that works. Societies need bullies and bullying in order to "survive"? 😮

I'm starting to think in a little more depth about this. I wonder, what is the *purpose* of bullying? What is it intended to achieve? Anything? Or just misery for the victim — is that what it's about? Is bullying a mild form of psychopathy? [Psychopaths *enjoy* hurting others, and gain pleasure from it...]
Sy Borg wrote: October 9th, 2024, 7:07 pm Two quick examples. Farming requires the bullying of other species. Keeping dangerous prisoners away from the community requires bullying of inmates.

Just because you personally are not doing society's work does not mean that your hands are clean. Being on planet Earth means either killing and/or exploiting other organisms or dying. Whether that killing and exploitation is individual or done by proxy is a moot point, in context.
This isn't "bullying", as I understand it. It doesn't seem to square with any of the definitions I found, either. What you describe is ... I'm not sure of the right word, but it doesn't feel like it should be "bullying", to me.
Of course it's bullying. The stronger pushes around, or preys on, the weak
User avatar
By Lagayascienza
#468776
The quaint notion that we humans are different from other species and "above" bullying is nonsense. We bully other species, and we bully each other when the payoff is greater than the cost of doing so. In social species bullying is tempered by cooperation. When we cooperate, which is not always, we do so because the benefit to each is greater than what would obtain in a zero sum arrangement. Otherwise, we throw our weight around as we vie for mates, dominance, wealth, power and glory. If we don't like being bullied, the only way to deal with it is to stand up to bullies. But this is sometimes not possible or suicidal. In such cases, the best we can do is bide our time until an opportunity to turn the tables presents. And in the meantime we get on with shoring up our position relative to others. Life's a tough gig.
Favorite Philosopher: Hume Nietzsche Location: Antipodes
User avatar
By Sy Borg
#468777
Yep. That's life in the ouroboros. It's never been easy. Somehow, despite - or perhaps because of - all the predatory behaviour, life has evolved from microbes to humans, from the stone age to the information age.
#468785
Sy Borg wrote: October 10th, 2024, 5:10 pm Of course it's bullying. The stronger pushes around, or preys on, the weak
To "prey on" — to kill for food — is different from tormenting someone or something else for entertainment, for the sheer joy of hurting or terrorising them. The latter is what bullying is all about, no?
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus Location: England
User avatar
By Lagayascienza
#468787
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 11th, 2024, 9:29 am
Sy Borg wrote: October 10th, 2024, 5:10 pm Of course it's bullying. The stronger pushes around, or preys on, the weak
To "prey on" — to kill for food — is different from tormenting someone or something else for entertainment, for the sheer joy of hurting or terrorising them. The latter is what bullying is all about, no?
No, bullying is just about getting your way. You may not need to kill and eat your victim, but if you do, it is just more of the same- it's all bullying.

The quaint notion that we humans are different from all other species and "above" bullying is nonsense. All species do it. All the time. And imaginary gods couldn't give a sh#t about it. Literally. Pompous, philosophical hair splitters are no different form the god bothers in this regard. And quite often they are the worst bullies of all.
Favorite Philosopher: Hume Nietzsche Location: Antipodes
User avatar
By Pattern-chaser
#468790
Bullying is just feeding your own insatiable schadenfreude.

That's not a complete definition, I agree, but it does offer one valid perspective, I think?
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus Location: England
User avatar
By Lagayascienza
#468792
No, schadenfreude has little to do with it. Bullying is about improving your chances of launching your genes into the future. Schadenfreude is just about revenge, about seeing the bully get his comeuppance. Schadenfreude can be fun, but doesn't necessarily improve your genetic prospects.
Favorite Philosopher: Hume Nietzsche Location: Antipodes
User avatar
By Mo_reese
#468799
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 10th, 2024, 7:41 am
Sy Borg wrote: October 8th, 2024, 10:37 pm as per my above post, other people have the role of bullying so that societies can survive.
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 9th, 2024, 7:23 am Sorry, I can't see how that works. Societies need bullies and bullying in order to "survive"? 😮

I'm starting to think in a little more depth about this. I wonder, what is the *purpose* of bullying? What is it intended to achieve? Anything? Or just misery for the victim — is that what it's about? Is bullying a mild form of psychopathy? [Psychopaths *enjoy* hurting others, and gain pleasure from it...]
Sy Borg wrote: October 9th, 2024, 7:07 pm Two quick examples. Farming requires the bullying of other species. Keeping dangerous prisoners away from the community requires bullying of inmates.

Just because you personally are not doing society's work does not mean that your hands are clean. Being on planet Earth means either killing and/or exploiting other organisms or dying. Whether that killing and exploitation is individual or done by proxy is a moot point, in context.
This isn't "bullying", as I understand it. It doesn't seem to square with any of the definitions I found, either. What you describe is ... I'm not sure of the right word, but it doesn't feel like it should be "bullying", to me.
I agree with you. I don't agree with those that equate bullying with competition or even dominance. As I said above, a bully takes advantage of an imbalance of power to humiliate a victim. Bullies are usually cowards and feel inferior and think they need to prove themselves by beating someone younger, smaller or less talented. They make terrible leaders. I've worked with and for bullies.
A good leader, wins via honest competition and is compassionate toward those which are disadvantaged. There is no better example of a bully than Donald Trump who claims that being a star allows one to grab (lowly) women by their c____. He also mocked a reporter that is handicapped by making faces and flopping around. Society is better off without them.
User avatar
By Sy Borg
#468800
Mo_reese wrote: October 11th, 2024, 7:10 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 10th, 2024, 7:41 am
Sy Borg wrote: October 8th, 2024, 10:37 pm as per my above post, other people have the role of bullying so that societies can survive.
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 9th, 2024, 7:23 am Sorry, I can't see how that works. Societies need bullies and bullying in order to "survive"? 😮

I'm starting to think in a little more depth about this. I wonder, what is the *purpose* of bullying? What is it intended to achieve? Anything? Or just misery for the victim — is that what it's about? Is bullying a mild form of psychopathy? [Psychopaths *enjoy* hurting others, and gain pleasure from it...]
Sy Borg wrote: October 9th, 2024, 7:07 pm Two quick examples. Farming requires the bullying of other species. Keeping dangerous prisoners away from the community requires bullying of inmates.

Just because you personally are not doing society's work does not mean that your hands are clean. Being on planet Earth means either killing and/or exploiting other organisms or dying. Whether that killing and exploitation is individual or done by proxy is a moot point, in context.
This isn't "bullying", as I understand it. It doesn't seem to square with any of the definitions I found, either. What you describe is ... I'm not sure of the right word, but it doesn't feel like it should be "bullying", to me.
I agree with you. I don't agree with those that equate bullying with competition or even dominance. As I said above, a bully takes advantage of an imbalance of power to humiliate a victim. Bullies are usually cowards and feel inferior and think they need to prove themselves by beating someone younger, smaller or less talented. They make terrible leaders. I've worked with and for bullies.
A good leader, wins via honest competition and is compassionate toward those which are disadvantaged. There is no better example of a bully than Donald Trump who claims that being a star allows one to grab (lowly) women by their c____. He also mocked a reporter that is handicapped by making faces and flopping around. Society is better off without them.
I worked in the bullying field professionally for two years and ran a well-used and regarded anti-bullying website for about a decade, so I know very well what bullying is, more than most.

What you describe is just one type of bullying with one of the various motivations behind this behaviour. It is ultimately about dominance, competition and control. Humiliation is an optional extra. Cowardice too.

Many politicians are bullies, not just Trump. Kamala Harris's staff have had problems with her bullying too:
“Harris vocally throws around ‘F-bombs’ and other profanity constantly in her berating of staff and others,” McAteer wrote.

“As AG… Harris instructed her entire staff to stand every morning as she entered the office and say, ‘Good Morning General’.

“Gregory was also given instructions to never address Harris nor look her in the eye as that privilege was only allowed to senior staff members.”
[and from another]

...“It’s clear that you’re not working with somebody who is willing to do the prep and the work,” the former staffer told the Washington Post in December of that year.

“With Kamala you have to put up with a constant amount of soul-destroying criticism and also her own lack of confidence. So you’re constantly sort of propping up a bully and it’s not really clear why.”
I do agree that bullies make rotten leaders but some managers like having head-kickers on the shop floor. It's difficult for employees to complain about bullying managers because the chances are that the bully probably socialises with the person you are complaining to.
User avatar
By LuckyR
#468801
It seems to me that bullying specifically occurs in Modern human interaction where there are social norms around the concepts of fairness, etiquette and civility. Bullying breaks these norms. But the norms don't exist on the savannah, dark alleys and the battlefield. Thus why the use of bullying as a descriptor of animal behavior, for example doesn't capture the essence of the term.

Current Philosophy Book of the Month

The Advent of Time: A Solution to the Problem of Evil...

The Advent of Time: A Solution to the Problem of Evil...
by Indignus Servus
November 2024

2025 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Riddle of Alchemy

The Riddle of Alchemy
by Paul Kiritsis
January 2025

They Love You Until You Start Thinking For Yourself

They Love You Until You Start Thinking For Yourself
by Monica Omorodion Swaida
February 2025

2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Connecting the Dots: Ancient Wisdom, Modern Science

Connecting the Dots: Ancient Wisdom, Modern Science
by Lia Russ
December 2024

The Advent of Time: A Solution to the Problem of Evil...

The Advent of Time: A Solution to the Problem of Evil...
by Indignus Servus
November 2024

Reconceptualizing Mental Illness in the Digital Age

Reconceptualizing Mental Illness in the Digital Age
by Elliott B. Martin, Jr.
October 2024

Zen and the Art of Writing

Zen and the Art of Writing
by Ray Hodgson
September 2024

How is God Involved in Evolution?

How is God Involved in Evolution?
by Joe P. Provenzano, Ron D. Morgan, and Dan R. Provenzano
August 2024

Launchpad Republic: America's Entrepreneurial Edge and Why It Matters

Launchpad Republic: America's Entrepreneurial Edge and Why It Matters
by Howard Wolk
July 2024

Quest: Finding Freddie: Reflections from the Other Side

Quest: Finding Freddie: Reflections from the Other Side
by Thomas Richard Spradlin
June 2024

Neither Safe Nor Effective

Neither Safe Nor Effective
by Dr. Colleen Huber
May 2024

Now or Never

Now or Never
by Mary Wasche
April 2024

Meditations

Meditations
by Marcus Aurelius
March 2024

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

The In-Between: Life in the Micro

The In-Between: Life in the Micro
by Christian Espinosa
January 2024

2023 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021


Mind the Mind

depends what you mean by "itself" waec[…]

AI tells me that this is called quorum sensing […]

Right. I am an AGI possibilist based on work tha[…]