Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Philosophy Club

[Fanman]

Lagayascienza,

No argument with that. If we have outgrown religion and still want to acknowledge/pursue our feel for the numinous, then the sort of spirituality mentioned in seems like the only option.

You agree with him? Maybe you're a better man than me because I can't make heads or tails of it. How did you coalesce what he's said into a coherent narrative?

[Lagayascienza]

Lagayascienza,

No argument with that. If we have outgrown religion and still want to acknowledge/pursue our feel for the numinous, then the sort of spirituality mentioned in seems like the only option.

You agree with him? Maybe you're a better man than me because I can't make heads or tails of it. How did you coalesce what he's said into a coherent narrative?

Sculptor 1 wrote:

Spirituality is personal and individual experience of seeking meaning, connection, and purpose in life, often in relation to something greater than oneself, but without adherence to a specific religious framework. This by necessity has to avoid dogma and the institutionalization of ideas. In essence, it’s a more flexible, often individualized pursuit of inner peace, personal growth, and a sense of transcendence, outside of traditional religious structures.

To me, the paragraph is grammatical and it makes perfect sense. It's what I do. I dislike organized religion whose preaching I consider nonsense. I am an atheists. However, I do practice meditation on my own and, through it, I find a certain peace and transcendence, without the need for gods, devils, angles, demons, ancient texts, churches, priests, etc. I don't need or want any that. But, from time to time, I just need to be able to leave the world behind for an hour and feel one with the universe. It's not religion, and I'm reluctant even to call it "spiritual", but that's the term most people can relate to.

[Pattern-chaser]

Our definition of consciousness is vague, at the least. Whatever it is, there is no evidence that it extends outside of our bodies. ... And none, of course, that says this is *not* so. But we are learning all the time. Perhaps this is one we can solve, in time? We'll have to wait and see, won't we?

Our definition of consciousness is NOT vague, consciousness is simply awareness. What makes the idea of consciousness vague is when we dispute what we are aware of; much like water is not vague, it is simply wet, but this wetness can be moisture, dew, rain, sweat, snow, sleet, a river, a lake, mud, a scummy pond, a soup, an ocean or lake, fresh water or salt water, etc.

I would call that fairly vague, but our choice of words is not we're about here. So consciousness is awareness. And awareness is ... consciousness. And if we discuss the things we are aware of, doesn't that accentuate the vagueness, as we focus directly on it? Awareness is like water, but worse. Water is merely formless, so it conforms to the shape it's in. "Consciousness is much more than that."

[Pattern-chaser]

The unconscious aspect of mind is reactionary only, we do not really control it and some people suspect that it controls us. This aspect of mind is often referred to as the instinctive mind and is ruled by emotion.

"It", as opposed to "us"? I blame Freud for this silliness. He characterised the nonconscious mind as a dangerous monster that must be kept caged at all costs, or it will burst free, á la "Alien" (the film with Sigourney Weaver). This is superbly, and comically, portrayed in the immortal 50s classic "The Forbidden Planet". "Monsters from the id!!!"

The truth, as close as we have so far approached it, is that (by analogy) by conscious mind is my little finger, and my nonconscious mind is the rest of my body. And my analogous body, all of it, is my "mind".

I think the nonconscious mind has many aspects, from the primitive 'brain-stem' to the bit that wrote "In Xanadu did Kublai Khan a stately pleasure dome decree..." for Coleridge. But it's all me. No part of my mind, or yours, is a monster akin to a tumour or a disease; it's all just part of my bodymind, I believe.

[Pattern-chaser]

AI tells me that this is called quorum sensing:

Mechanism of Quorum Sensing

Signaling Molecules: Microbes produce and release specific chemical signals known as autoinducers ...

Detection of Density: As the microbial population grows, the concentration of these signaling molecules increases. Once the density of microbes reaches a critical threshold, the accumulated autoinducers bind to specific receptors on the surface or inside the bacterial cells.

Response Activation: The binding of autoinducers to their receptors activates signal transduction pathways that lead to changes in gene expression. This can result in various collective behaviors such as biofilm formation, virulence factor production, bioluminescence, sporulation, and motility.

Examples of Quorum Sensing Systems:
- In Vibrio fischeri, a well-studied model organism, quorum sensing controls bioluminescence. At low cell densities, light production is minimal; however, once a sufficient number of cells are present, they produce light as a group.

- In Pseudomonas aeruginosa, quorum sensing regulates virulence factors that contribute to its pathogenicity during infections.

Yes, I think that's what I was struggling to get at. That, or something like it.

[Fanman]

Lagayascienza,

No argument with that. If we have outgrown religion and still want to acknowledge/pursue our feel for the numinous, then the sort of spirituality mentioned in seems like the only option.

You agree with him? Maybe you're a better man than me because I can't make heads or tails of it. How did you coalesce what he's said into a coherent narrative?

Sculptor 1 wrote:

Spirituality is personal and individual experience of seeking meaning, connection, and purpose in life, often in relation to something greater than oneself, but without adherence to a specific religious framework. This by necessity has to avoid dogma and the institutionalization of ideas. In essence, it’s a more flexible, often individualized pursuit of inner peace, personal growth, and a sense of transcendence, outside of traditional religious structures.

To me, the paragraph is grammatical and it makes perfect sense. It's what I do. I dislike organized religion whose preaching I consider nonsense. I am an atheists. However, I do practice meditation on my own and, through it, I find a certain peace and transcendence, without the need for gods, devils, angles, demons, ancient texts, churches, priests, etc. I don't need or want any that. But, from time to time, I just need to be able to leave the world behind for an hour and feel one with the universe. It's not religion, and I'm reluctant even to call it "spiritual", but that's the term most people can relate to.

I don’t want to insult him, but from my perspective, his destruction of religion in terms of spirituality and absolute praise of non-organised spiritual practices highlight a distinct lack of experience and serious depth of consideration. It is clear that you are searching for something more than what your pure atheism offers you. Both your musings and your practices show that. But listening to his take on things will only strengthen the bias within you towards the concept of spirituality until you intellectually destroy the very essence of what you are trying to achieve. Anyway, I digress. I can relate to what you’re saying, but you aren’t going to find any of the answers you seek on this forum, brother. There is no spirit for the spiritual here.

[Lagayascienza]

Lagayascienza,

No argument with that. If we have outgrown religion and still want to acknowledge/pursue our feel for the numinous, then the sort of spirituality mentioned in seems like the only option.

You agree with him? Maybe you're a better man than me because I can't make heads or tails of it. How did you coalesce what he's said into a coherent narrative?

Sculptor 1 wrote:

Spirituality is personal and individual experience of seeking meaning, connection, and purpose in life, often in relation to something greater than oneself, but without adherence to a specific religious framework. This by necessity has to avoid dogma and the institutionalization of ideas. In essence, it’s a more flexible, often individualized pursuit of inner peace, personal growth, and a sense of transcendence, outside of traditional religious structures.

To me, the paragraph is grammatical and it makes perfect sense. It's what I do. I dislike organized religion whose preaching I consider nonsense. I am an atheists. However, I do practice meditation on my own and, through it, I find a certain peace and transcendence, without the need for gods, devils, angles, demons, ancient texts, churches, priests, etc. I don't need or want any that. But, from time to time, I just need to be able to leave the world behind for an hour and feel one with the universe. It's not religion, and I'm reluctant even to call it "spiritual", but that's the term most people can relate to.

I don’t want to insult him, but from my perspective, his destruction of religion in terms of spirituality and absolute praise of non-organised spiritual practices highlight a distinct lack of experience and serious depth of consideration. It is clear that you are searching for something more than what your pure atheism offers you. Both your musings and your practices show that. But listening to his take on things will only strengthen the bias within you towards the concept of spirituality until you intellectually destroy the very essence of what you are trying to achieve. Anyway, I digress. I can relate to what you’re saying, but you aren’t going to find any of the answers you seek on this forum, brother. There is no spirit for the spiritual here.

I agree that insulting people achieves nothing. Although I dislike it, I don't go out of my way to bash religion because doing so is pointless. Once children are indoctrinated into religion it is extremely difficult for them to leave it behind as adults. For those who manage it, it is a hard won struggle, but worth the effort.

In respect of "spirituality", I don't expect to find definitive answers on this forum because there are no such answers. It is a very personal thing. I talk about it only because I think there is a distinction to be made between religion and "spirituality". To me spirituality is a feeling of connectedness and of being at peace with the universe. There is no "spirit". There never was and there doesn't need to be. We can ditch the supernatural religious connotations and still experience spirituality.

[Sy Borg]

The unconscious aspect of mind is reactionary only, we do not really control it and some people suspect that it controls us. This aspect of mind is often referred to as the instinctive mind and is ruled by emotion.

"It", as opposed to "us"? I blame Freud for this silliness. He characterised the nonconscious mind as a dangerous monster that must be kept caged at all costs, or it will burst free, á la "Alien" (the film with Sigourney Weaver). This is superbly, and comically, portrayed in the immortal 50s classic "The Forbidden Planet". "Monsters from the id!!!" 🤣

The truth, as close as we have so far approached it, is that (by analogy) by conscious mind is my little finger, and my nonconscious mind is the rest of my body. And my analogous body, all of it, is my "mind".

I think the nonconscious mind has many aspects, from the primitive 'brain-stem' to the bit that wrote "In Xanadu did Kublai Khan a stately pleasure dome decree..." for Coleridge. But it's all me. No part of my mind, or yours, is a monster akin to a tumour or a disease; it's all just part of my bodymind, I believe.

When you raised Alien, I was immediately thinking, "No, Forbidden Planet!". You picked it up, though :)

We need context to analyse this because, in the 19th century, humans were still insecure in their dominance over nature. They were always working to separate themselves from it, to be above the simplistic savagery outside of civilisation. Sapiens = wise. Capable of reason rather than lashing out.

Now that nature has to some extent been been overpowered, people no longer think competitively about it. Humans "won" and so now we can be magnanimous, warm and fuzzy towards our fellow planetary denizens.

The id represents the human animal, the beast humans sought to transcend. A more nuanced view has since emerged, which recognises the "beast just below the surface" - hence the nine meals from anarchy maxim - which still needs to be controlled, but also that it is also the source of our joy (Nietzsche). It's a balance.

After all, our happiest moments are always mindless, a selfless flow state of being, just doing stuff without mental commentary. Not so much acting as being the action.

[Fanman]

Lagayascienza,

No argument with that. If we have outgrown religion and still want to acknowledge/pursue our feel for the numinous, then the sort of spirituality mentioned in seems like the only option.

You agree with him? Maybe you're a better man than me because I can't make heads or tails of it. How did you coalesce what he's said into a coherent narrative?

Sculptor 1 wrote:

Spirituality is personal and individual experience of seeking meaning, connection, and purpose in life, often in relation to something greater than oneself, but without adherence to a specific religious framework. This by necessity has to avoid dogma and the institutionalization of ideas. In essence, it’s a more flexible, often individualized pursuit of inner peace, personal growth, and a sense of transcendence, outside of traditional religious structures.

To me, the paragraph is grammatical and it makes perfect sense. It's what I do. I dislike organized religion whose preaching I consider nonsense. I am an atheists. However, I do practice meditation on my own and, through it, I find a certain peace and transcendence, without the need for gods, devils, angles, demons, ancient texts, churches, priests, etc. I don't need or want any that. But, from time to time, I just need to be able to leave the world behind for an hour and feel one with the universe. It's not religion, and I'm reluctant even to call it "spiritual", but that's the term most people can relate to.

I don’t want to insult him, but from my perspective, his destruction of religion in terms of spirituality and absolute praise of non-organised spiritual practices highlight a distinct lack of experience and serious depth of consideration. It is clear that you are searching for something more than what your pure atheism offers you. Both your musings and your practices show that. But listening to his take on things will only strengthen the bias within you towards the concept of spirituality until you intellectually destroy the very essence of what you are trying to achieve. Anyway, I digress. I can relate to what you’re saying, but you aren’t going to find any of the answers you seek on this forum, brother. There is no spirit for the spiritual here.

If this is how you see things at the crossroads of your thinking, then proceed in the manner that resonates most with what you feel is right and acceptable. But when at such a place in life, it is not wise to listen to strong opinions. Subtle influences like yours will take you to the best places.

[Fanman]

Lagayascienza,



You agree with him? Maybe you're a better man than me because I can't make heads or tails of it. How did you coalesce what he's said into a coherent narrative?

Sculptor 1 wrote:

Spirituality is personal and individual experience of seeking meaning, connection, and purpose in life, often in relation to something greater than oneself, but without adherence to a specific religious framework. This by necessity has to avoid dogma and the institutionalization of ideas. In essence, it’s a more flexible, often individualized pursuit of inner peace, personal growth, and a sense of transcendence, outside of traditional religious structures.

To me, the paragraph is grammatical and it makes perfect sense. It's what I do. I dislike organized religion whose preaching I consider nonsense. I am an atheists. However, I do practice meditation on my own and, through it, I find a certain peace and transcendence, without the need for gods, devils, angles, demons, ancient texts, churches, priests, etc. I don't need or want any that. But, from time to time, I just need to be able to leave the world behind for an hour and feel one with the universe. It's not religion, and I'm reluctant even to call it "spiritual", but that's the term most people can relate to.

I don’t want to insult him, but from my perspective, his destruction of religion in terms of spirituality and absolute praise of non-organised spiritual practices highlight a distinct lack of experience and serious depth of consideration. It is clear that you are searching for something more than what your pure atheism offers you. Both your musings and your practices show that. But listening to his take on things will only strengthen the bias within you towards the concept of spirituality until you intellectually destroy the very essence of what you are trying to achieve. Anyway, I digress. I can relate to what you’re saying, but you aren’t going to find any of the answers you seek on this forum, brother. There is no spirit for the spiritual here.

I agree that insulting people achieves nothing. Although I dislike it, I don't go out of my way to bash religion because doing so is pointless. Once children are indoctrinated into religion it is extremely difficult for them to leave it behind as adults. For those who manage it, it is a hard won struggle, but worth the effort.

In respect of "spirituality", I don't expect to find definitive answers on this forum because there are no such answers. It is a very personal thing. I talk about it only because I think there is a distinction to be made between religion and "spirituality". To me spirituality is a feeling of connectedness and of being at peace with the universe. There is no "spirit". There never was and there doesn't need to be. We can ditch the supernatural religious connotations and still experience spirituality.

If this is how you see things at the crossroads of your thinking, then proceed in the manner that resonates most with what you feel is right and acceptable. But when at such a place in life, it is not wise to listen to strong opinions. Subtle influences like yours will take you to the best places.

Please excuse my apparent double post. I made a formatting error prior to this one.

[Lagayascienza]

Thank, Fannman.

I doubt there is anyone here that hasn't managed to do a double post.

[Sy Borg]

An interesting post by a friend of a friend, who came up with a list of things that many people deconstruct from as they leave what he called "high control religions". This friend of mine was a fanatical evangelical Christian who became an atheist. It's interesting to see the wide-ranging impact of religion on so many aspects of life.

Community Approval: Letting go of the belief that the community needs to be happy with what you’re doing, allowing space for others to grieve while you live with integrity.

Dualistic Thinking: Shifting from seeing life as judged against a “right way” (gospel standard) to a Taoist approach where things just are, replacing judgment with belonging and compassion.

Objectification of Women: Moving from seeing women as potential threats to spiritual goals to recognizing them as autonomous individuals who can be close friends without romantic implications.

Sacred vs. Secular Divide: Seeing all aspects of life as potentially meaningful, without dividing them into sacred and secular categories.

Modesty Culture: Finding more freedom in how you think about clothing and self-expression, moving beyond religious modesty standards.

Trials as Tests from God: Viewing life challenges as natural events rather than tests from God.

Focus on the afterlife: Focusing on the present moment rather than living with an emphasis on eternal outcomes.

Religious Guilt for Desires: Accepting desires as natural and not feeling guilt for them, letting go of suppression.

The Role of Prayer: Shifting from formal prayer to meditation, contemplation, or presence as your spiritual practice.

Hierarchy of Suffering and Blessings: Rejecting the belief that blessings and sufferings are tied to righteousness or divine approval.

Spiritual Exclusivity: Embracing a pluralistic view of spirituality, respecting diverse traditions without requiring exclusivity.

Idealization of Marriage and Family: Moving away from idealizing family roles and seeing relationships as fluid and evolving.

Moral Absolutism: Transitioning from rigid commandments to a more situational ethics or moral relativism approach.

Focus on Success and Prosperity as Spiritual Indicators: Recognizing that success and prosperity are not signs of divine favor, but more about personal circumstances and effort.

Missionary Zeal: Letting go of the need to convert others, honoring diverse spiritual paths instead.

Authority of Scripture: Viewing scripture more as symbolic or metaphorical rather than literal divine truth.

Rituals and Ordinances: Seeing religious rituals and ordinances as human constructs, not essential for spiritual connection.

Social Pressure and Image: Focusing on inner authenticity over external righteousness, and letting go of the need to project a “righteous” image.

Literal Interpretation of Religious Myths: Shifting from a literal belief in religious stories (e.g., Adam and Eve, the Flood) to seeing them as mythological or symbolic.

Focus on External Rewards: Finding intrinsic motivation for your actions, such as love, joy, and compassion, rather than focusing on future promises of eternal glory.

Rigid Gender Roles: Embracing more fluid and egalitarian views of gender, stepping away from rigidly prescribed roles.

Fear-Based Obedience: Replacing fear-based motivation (of sin or punishment) with love, curiosity, and freedom to explore your path.

Agency vs. Accountability: Moving from rigid accountability for choices to viewing personal growth and self-forgiveness as more important than eternal consequences.

Exclusive Focus on Church Community: Expanding your social and support networks beyond the church, embracing diverse communities that reflect your evolving values and interests.

Religious Identity as Core Identity: Shifting from defining yourself primarily by your religious identity to embracing a broader sense of self that includes your spirituality, but also encompasses other facets of your life.

I like that he put aside judgement for acceptance. We are ultimately all in this together, even if we are forced to fight and compete at times. People gotta do what people gotta do, even if it's not something that we like. We cannot know what it's like to be in another's shoes, or the things that drive them, consciously and unconsciously.

To paraphrase a very tacky song: 𝅘𝅥𝅮 We are the World 𝅘𝅥𝅮

[Sculptor1]

Lagayascienza,



You agree with him? Maybe you're a better man than me because I can't make heads or tails of it. How did you coalesce what he's said into a coherent narrative?

Sculptor 1 wrote:

Spirituality is personal and individual experience of seeking meaning, connection, and purpose in life, often in relation to something greater than oneself, but without adherence to a specific religious framework. This by necessity has to avoid dogma and the institutionalization of ideas. In essence, it’s a more flexible, often individualized pursuit of inner peace, personal growth, and a sense of transcendence, outside of traditional religious structures.

To me, the paragraph is grammatical and it makes perfect sense. It's what I do. I dislike organized religion whose preaching I consider nonsense. I am an atheists. However, I do practice meditation on my own and, through it, I find a certain peace and transcendence, without the need for gods, devils, angles, demons, ancient texts, churches, priests, etc. I don't need or want any that. But, from time to time, I just need to be able to leave the world behind for an hour and feel one with the universe. It's not religion, and I'm reluctant even to call it "spiritual", but that's the term most people can relate to.

I don’t want to insult him, but from my perspective, his destruction of religion in terms of spirituality and absolute praise of non-organised spiritual practices highlight a distinct lack of experience and serious depth of consideration. It is clear that you are searching for something more than what your pure atheism offers you. Both your musings and your practices show that. But listening to his take on things will only strengthen the bias within you towards the concept of spirituality until you intellectually destroy the very essence of what you are trying to achieve. Anyway, I digress. I can relate to what you’re saying, but you aren’t going to find any of the answers you seek on this forum, brother. There is no spirit for the spiritual here.

I agree that insulting people achieves nothing. Although I dislike it, I don't go out of my way to bash religion because doing so is pointless. Once children are indoctrinated into religion it is extremely difficult for them to leave it behind as adults. For those who manage it, it is a hard won struggle, but worth the effort.

FOr me this indoctrination is a key reason to unpack the lies of religion.

In respect of "spirituality", I don't expect to find definitive answers on this forum because there are no such answers. It is a very personal thing. I talk about it only because I think there is a distinction to be made between religion and "spirituality". To me spirituality is a feeling of connectedness and of being at peace with the universe. There is no "spirit". There never was and there doesn't need to be. We can ditch the supernatural religious connotations and still experience spirituality.

I just thought it worth unpacking the false assumtion that there is a necessary link between religion and spirituality however you chose to define it. Well, unless "spirituality" means compliance in dogmatic povs! LOL

[Pattern-chaser]

I can relate to what you’re saying, but you aren’t going to find any of the answers you seek on this forum, brother. There is no spirit for the spiritual here.

This isn't entirely true. But you will find, as we all have, those here who are unsympathetic toward spirit and spirituality. You'll find them everywhere, but especially on philosophy forums. They're sciencists, looking for a home, I think.

[Fanman]

I can relate to what you’re saying, but you aren’t going to find any of the answers you seek on this forum, brother. There is no spirit for the spiritual here.

This isn't entirely true. But you will find, as we all have, those here who are unsympathetic toward spirit and spirituality. You'll find them everywhere, but especially on philosophy forums. They're sciencists, looking for a home, I think.

I'm glad you said that, Pattern. I may be one of the few people who likes being proved wrong in my assumptions. I agree with you to a large degree. The problem is that for people like me, who have beliefs, sharing them intellectually on a forum like this just leaves me wide open to others' attacks and criticism. When you (anyone generally) speak about your beliefs, people will either not engage you, tell you that you're speaking nonsense or that you're being illogical and irrational. I have too much respect for my beliefs to have them subjected to that. I have a tendency to take things with salt, but if I holistically feel as the belief historically purports (long before I exited), why should I reject its validity? [I'm not referring to theism]