Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Pattern-chaser]

But it's almost as if those who seek to transition want to reverse that stigma and social expectation. They want to be treated and regarded as if they are a different gender. That's why so many get so hung up on not being mis-gendered, why those that transition often become caricatures of the gender they desire to be. They seek affirmation of their gender identity in the behaviours of others around them. It is not enough that they be merely left to be how they want to be.

I know only one trans person that closely. She chose to transition *for herself*, not for those around her. She delights if those around her treat her as a woman, as she is, but the whole transition was for her to approach *actual* femininity as closely as possible. For her own sake, not yours or mine.

She definitely does NOT "seek affirmation of their gender identity in the behaviours of others around them". In her case, your final sentence is factually incorrect; wrong.

[Pattern-chaser]

Well, if there is no gender identity, then you are effectively saying that all transpeople are either insane or perverts. If that was the case, the medical profession would have put an end to it over half a century ago.

I did not say that there is no such thing, I only question whether it is innate, and whether everyone has it (as I'm not aware of mine).

You are not aware of your own (fe)maleness??

[Fried Egg]

But it's almost as if those who seek to transition want to reverse that stigma and social expectation. They want to be treated and regarded as if they are a different gender. That's why so many get so hung up on not being mis-gendered, why those that transition often become caricatures of the gender they desire to be. They seek affirmation of their gender identity in the behaviours of others around them. It is not enough that they be merely left to be how they want to be.

I know only one trans person that closely. She chose to transition *for herself*, not for those around her. She delights if those around her treat her as a woman, as she is, but the whole transition was for her to approach *actual* femininity as closely as possible. For her own sake, not yours or mine.

She definitely does NOT "seek affirmation of their gender identity in the behaviours of others around them". In her case, your final sentence is factually incorrect; wrong.

People who seek affirmation are doing so for their own benefit and not the benefit of others. So I don't see the conflict with what you're saying? I'm only making the point that how others see them is important to them.

In any case, I was making generalisations and with any generalisation, there are always exceptions. Maybe your friend doesn't care what pronouns people use when they refer to her? Maybe she doesn't insist on entering sporting events in the female category or being able to join female only groups? I have no idea but my point remains that many who transition do care and seek for others to see them how they want to be seen (for their own sake). Hence why there is so much debate and conflict around this issue in our culture right now.

Note, I am not saying all trans people seek to impose themselves on others in this way. Far from it. It's always the vocal minority that people take the most notice of.

You are not aware of your own (fe)maleness??

I never said that. As I elaborated in the beginning of this discussion, I'm fully aware that I am male. It is just not some deeply held, innate innermost feeling that I have (like my sexuality for instance). If I had been born in a female body and brought up as a female, I would have been just as aware of being female.

[Lagayascienza]

I don't think it does change over time. What I think has happened is that people who would once have been too afraid to express their gender identity are no longer so afraid. They've come out of the closet. It was the same with gays. Most of them lived unhappy lives in the closet to avoid condemnation and possible imprisonment. Now the laws have changed young gay people feel free to be who they are. I think the same has happened with transsexuality.

I also think that there are some people in whom gender is not a fixed thing. They are non-binary. Just as there are bisexual people who are genuinely attracted to both genders, so there are people who identify with both genders and may spend time as either. This is totally different from drag queens or travesties who just get a kick out of dressing up. It’s complicated but it’s all part of the rich tapestry that is human sexuality and gender and which narrow, conservative religious minds find difficult to fathom and refuse accept. They lack imagination, empathy and humanity.

[Lagayascienza]

I raised this earlier, but I don't think anyone has addressed it, but what do people who think gender identity is innate think about the idea that it can change over time? This is something that all the websites I looked up the definitions for gender identity agreed upon. But that doesn't seem to fit with the idea that it is innate.

I don't think it does change over time. What I think has happened is that people who would once have been too afraid to express their gender identity are no longer so afraid. They've come out of the closet. It was the same with gays. Most of them lived unhappy lives in the closet to avoid condemnation and possible imprisonment. Now the laws have changed young gay people feel free to be who they are. I think the same has happened with transsexuality.

I also think that there are some people in whom gender is not a fixed thing. They are non-binary. Just as there are bisexual people who are genuinely attracted to both genders, so there are people who identify with both genders and may spend time as either. This is totally different from drag queens or travesties who just get a kick out of dressing up. It’s complicated but it’s all part of the rich tapestry that is human sexuality and gender and which narrow, conservative religious minds find difficult to fathom and refuse accept. They lack imagination, empathy and humanity.

[Count Lucanor]

One could ask a somewhat different question (to the OP):

What purpose does having a gender identity serve?

When I say purpose, I mean biologically or evolutionary. It is quite obvious with regards to sexuality; most people are born being innately attracted to people of the opposite sex because that is necessary for furtherance of the species, to pass on our genetic inheritance.

But what purpose is having an innate awareness of or desire to be a gender serve? Again, it is not obvious to me what biological or evolutionary purpose it would serve. In other words, one could totally dispense with an inner sense of one's own gender and just carry on regardless. i.e. it doesn't do anything.

Or perhaps you think it does?

1. There's no innate awareness of gender.
2. Gender identity does not have to serve a biological, evolutionary purpose. It serves social, historically-determined purposes.

[Pattern-chaser]

But it's almost as if those who seek to transition want to reverse that stigma and social expectation. They want to be treated and regarded as if they are a different gender. That's why so many get so hung up on not being mis-gendered, why those that transition often become caricatures of the gender they desire to be. They seek affirmation of their gender identity in the behaviours of others around them. It is not enough that they be merely left to be how they want to be.

I know only one trans person that closely. She chose to transition *for herself*, not for those around her. She delights if those around her treat her as a woman, as she is, but the whole transition was for her to approach *actual* femininity as closely as possible. For her own sake, not yours or mine.

She definitely does NOT "seek affirmation of their gender identity in the behaviours of others around them". In her case, your final sentence is factually incorrect; wrong.

People who seek affirmation are doing so for their own benefit and not the benefit of others. So I don't see the conflict with what you're saying? I'm only making the point that how others see them is important to them.

In any case, I was making generalisations and with any generalisation, there are always exceptions. Maybe your friend doesn't care what pronouns people use when they refer to her? Maybe she doesn't insist on entering sporting events in the female category or being able to join female only groups? I have no idea but my point remains that many who transition do care and seek for others to see them how they want to be seen (for their own sake). Hence why there is so much debate and conflict around this issue in our culture right now.

Note, I am not saying all trans people seek to impose themselves on others in this way. Far from it. It's always the vocal minority that people take the most notice of.

You are not aware of your own (fe)maleness??

I never said that. As I elaborated in the beginning of this discussion, I'm fully aware that I am male. It is just not some deeply held, innate innermost feeling that I have (like my sexuality for instance). If I had been born in a female body and brought up as a female, I would have been just as aware of being female.

I am a bit concerned. Here, we have you and I, two cis males, discussing a group we know little of, using only contact with one trans person. You haven't said so, but I'm guessing you have no personal trans contacts. And so I wonder if we are right to continue talking about what "they" think or feel, or what "they" want, when ... we don't really know what we're talking about. I think we have need of some fact-checking, don't you?

[Sy Borg]

In any case, I was making generalisations and with any generalisation, there are always exceptions. Maybe your friend doesn't care what pronouns people use when they refer to her? Maybe she doesn't insist on entering sporting events in the female category or being able to join female only groups? I have no idea but my point remains that many who transition do care and seek for others to see them how they want to be seen (for their own sake). Hence why there is so much debate and conflict around this issue in our culture right now.

There is a reason why we almost never saw or met transpeople before it became trendy. It was because they obviously had no desire to be noticed, and no doubt just sought to fit in and life a life without drama, like anyone else. Today's activist transpeople, with beards, deep baritone voices, who do not have surgery, who are unmistakeably masculine are clearly very different to the old school transpeople. My guess is that this new plethora of transpeople consists of crossdressers who finally feel it safe to come out of the closet.

Today's Zeitgeist seems to have brought a percentage of closeted crossdressers into the public sphere. I doubt too many would care if they did not try to occupy female spaces like toilets, change rooms, sports and refuges.

[Lagayascienza]

Whatever gender people identify with is their business and I'm fine with it. However, their gender identification cannot be allowed to impinge on the rights of others.

However they may dress, we cannot have, for example, biological males competing against biological women in sport. Their greater size and strength gives them an unfair advantage. Nor do I think that it is appropriate to have jocks in frocks working in women's refuges or using female change rooms and toilets. I have great empathy for true transexuals. They should be free to live as the gender they feel themselves to be. But, as mentioned, there are limits that need to be imposed to protect the rights of others. Fortunately, many countries are now providing unisex public toilets and that defuses the issue somewhat for true transexuals.

Travesties and drag queens are not transexuals. I don't mind them dressing up for kicks, but I don't think we should feel obliged to treat them as real women. They are not real women. They are men dressed in women's attire. True post-op transexuals I am happy to treat as women. I've known and worked with several who would be impossible to pick as trans. But even here, I don't think they should compete against biological women in sport. And I think most of them accept and understand why. They are not stupid, and they don't identify with the radical raucous element clamoring for anyone with a beard and dressed in a frock to be treated as women.

True transexual women don't make a fuss. They just want get on with their lives. The ones I know were in long-term stable relationships with heterosexual men and just wanted to get on with life behind their white picket fences in the suburbs like ordinary people.

[Fried Egg]

I am a bit concerned. Here, we have you and I, two cis males, discussing a group we know little of, using only contact with one trans person. You haven't said so, but I'm guessing you have no personal trans contacts. And so I wonder if we are right to continue talking about what "they" think or feel, or what "they" want, when ... we don't really know what we're talking about. I think we have need of some fact-checking, don't you?

I am responding to what I have heard some trans-activists claim/call for.

Those that claim that mis-gendering should be regarded as a "hate" crime obviously care strongly about how they are seen in the eyes of others and don't want anybody to undermine the illusion they want society to share. I reject the very concept of a "cis male" (we are not assigned a sex at birth) but I reserve the right to comment and have an opinion on such claims/demands.

[Lagayascienza]

I suspect you are referring to sensationalist reports in the rabid-right media. Can you point us to reliable reports of people saying that misgendering should be regarded as a hate crime. It may have happened elsewhere but I've not heard of this in my own country.

If people are calling for such a thing then I think they are nuts. There is no way I'll be calling a deep-voiced bearded bloke in a frock a woman. Post-op transexuals who look, act and live as a women I have no problem calling a women or using the pronouns she and her in relation to them.

Any attempt to legislate to make misgendering a hate crime is unlikely to ever be passed in any parliament I can think of. It's not something we should be concerned about.

[Fried Egg]

I suspect you are referring to sensationalist reports in the rabid-right media. Can you point us to reliable reports of people saying that misgendering should be regarded as a hate crime. It may have happened elsewhere but I've not heard of this in my own country.

If people are calling for such a thing then I think they are nuts. There is no way I'll be calling a deep-voiced bearded bloke in a frock a woman. Post-op transexuals who look, act and live as a women I have no problem calling a women or using the pronouns she and her in relation to them.

Any attempt to legislate to make misgendering a hate crime is unlikely to ever be passed in any parliament I can think of. It's not something we should be concerned about.

I don't think there has been specific legislation on misgendering itself (that I am aware of). I think it is a question of how the laws that protect trans people against "vilification" (or hate crimes in other words) are to be interpreted. In Australia, you can see the 'transgender vilification' amendment to original Anti Discrimination act (of 1977) on the New South Wales government web site: "Transgender vilification is against the law. It is a public act that could incite hatred, serious contempt or severe ridicule towards people who are transgender." The question is, should misgendering count as "severe ridicule"?

I know in the UK people have had non hate crime incidents recorded against them for misgendering people in public social media posts. A Christian preacher was arrested and given a 12 month community order after calling a trans woman a man (although the sentence was later quashed on appeal).

In July 2022 a petition was lodged for the UK government to: "Make deliberately misgendering someone a hate crime." The petition was eventually rejected because: "The act of deliberating mis-gendering someone is already a hate crime, if a court determines that this act demonstrated hostility based on that person's transgender identity, or that it was motivated by hostility based on their transgender identity." (this can all be seen on the UK government website).

I know it's all changed now but trans activists celebrated five years ago when "misgendering" and "deadnaming" to its hateful conduct policy which resulted in a number of feminists having their accounts closed.

So while the laws aren't explicit, it is not some distant prospect that we needn't even concern ourselves with. We need to guard against over zealous interpretation of the anti-discrimination laws.

[Fried Egg]

I know it's all changed now but trans activists celebrated five years ago when "misgendering" and "deadnaming" to its hateful conduct policy which resulted in a number of feminists having their accounts closed.

I didn't make it clear but this paragraph above was a reference to the Twitter [as it was then] in 2019).

[Lagayascienza]

Such a law, if any parliament were silly enough to enact it, would not pass muster in the courts. Thank goodness for the separation of powers with the legislature, the executive and the judiciary. I don't think there is any chance of such a law being enacted and, therefore, we should not be concerned about it. It's just the religious right whipping up fear to further their own agenda.

[Fried Egg]

Such a law, if any parliament were silly enough to enact it, would not pass muster in the courts. Thank goodness for the separation of powers with the legislature, the executive and the judiciary. I don't think there is any chance of such a law being enacted and, therefore, we should not be concerned about it. It's just the religious right whipping up fear to further their own agenda.

As I said, the danger is not that this would be explicitly written into law, but rather that ambiguous laws aimed at protecting trans people from vilification or hate speech will be interpreted in such a way as to include misgendering. Something which, in many western countries, we have come perilously close to. Hence the need to speak up about it.

You didn't ask whether this had actually been explicitly put into law anywhere. You asked whether there was any evidence of people calling for it:

Can you point us to reliable reports of people saying that misgendering should be regarded as a hate crime.

And I think I answered that question (as well as I could without the ability to post links). There clearly are some trans activists who are calling for it.

Another example from Canada:

In a recent decision, the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal (the CHRT or Tribunal) ruled that misgendering and “deadnaming” an employee, despite specific and repeated requests for his gender identity to be respected, constitute discriminatory behaviour that violates the Canadian Human Rights Act (CHRA).

The ruling reinforces the legal protections afforded to transgender employees under Canadian human rights legislation, including the CHRA, and the obligations imposed on employers for workplace discrimination.

So, it is clear that you don't need specific laws against misgendering if the laws are sufficiently ambiguous that they get interpreted in that way. It goes on:

Embracing the approach of the British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal, the CHRT affirmed the rights of transgender employees to recognition and respect for their gender identity and expression, and the corollary “basic obligation” for all individuals to use their chosen names and pronouns. It recognized the fundamental role of pronouns in shaping identity and the intrinsic link between misgendering and gender identity or expression. The Tribunal also underscored the significant impact of misgendering on the safety and well-being of transgender and non-binary individuals, describing its effects as “humiliating, stigmatizing, psychologically distressing, and dehumanizing.”

So your repeated insistence that it is just the rabid, religious right that is whipping up needless panic about the subject is clearly mistaken.