Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Fanman]

Pattern-chaser,

For myself, I have realised that "balance" embraces at least two meanings — static and dynamic, as we have discussed — and maybe more. And that our everyday use of "balance" often mixes the two up, and uses them simultaneously.

I’m sure you have valid reasons for that. Perhaps you could expound on what they are?

Yeah, balance is a significant part of our understanding of the universe. To us, it's a 'principle', and a useful one too. Just as long as we remember that the universe determines the 'principle', it's not governed by it. Our understanding depends on such principles, to the extent that we sometimes forget that all these principles are dependent on a reference, which is the universe itself. I wonder why we feel the need to formulate laws, rules, and principles, when the universe is there always, to act as a guide and reference whenever we need one? ... But that's just me, musing.

As we were discussing in another topic (with which you disagree with the act of), we break down the different aspects (principles, rules, laws, etc.) into references to explore them. Then, we create approximate models to incorporate them into the other references that we have. I think it would be problematic to try to understand all those references at once, as it is a vast amount of information. However, I believe that the most important thing is that while studying the universe, we don’t lose our connection to it. I think that years and years of scientific research and progress have led us away from feeling and more towards intellectualism, where all feelings and ways of understanding must pass through the lens of empiricism. I have grown to appreciate and respect science, but not at the cost of how I connect with the universe.

[Sy Borg]

There is a recent study that has consciousness emerging at the critical boundary between order and chaos in brain dynamics. A balance point, if you will. Again, it's obviously not static because, if there's anything that consciousness is not, it's static.

They based the work on neural networks human brain data. They found that consciousness peaks at the "edge of chaos"—a state where the neural networks balance structured and chaotic activities.

Ref: Kim and Lee 2022 study titled "The critical dynamics of complex systems and the consciousness".

Intuitively, that makes sense to me. Many complex and interesting phenomena occur on the boundary between domains, eg. seashores/beaches, the boundary between the lithosphere, hydrosphere and atmosphere. They can be seen as dynamic balance zones.

[Pattern-chaser]

For myself, I have realised that "balance" embraces at least two meanings — static and dynamic, as we have discussed — and maybe more. And that our everyday use of "balance" often mixes the two up, and uses them simultaneously.

I’m sure you have valid reasons for that. Perhaps you could expound on what they are?

I thought I just did. What is it that I have left unclear?

[Fanman]

There is a recent study that has consciousness emerging at the critical boundary between order and chaos in brain dynamics. A balance point, if you will. Again, it's obviously not static because, if there's anything that consciousness is not, it's static.

They based the work on neural networks human brain data. They found that consciousness peaks at the "edge of chaos"—a state where the neural networks balance structured and chaotic activities.

Ref: Kim and Lee 2022 study titled "The critical dynamics of complex systems and the consciousness".

Intuitively, that makes sense to me. Many complex and interesting phenomena occur on the boundary between domains, eg. seashores/beaches, the boundary between the lithosphere, hydrosphere and atmosphere. They can be seen as dynamic balance zones.

Without going into too much detail, I used to experience hypnopompic hallucinations when I experienced sleep paralysis, which occurs at a point between being asleep and awake. For me, this experientially supports what you say. Perhaps the study also.

[Fanman]

For myself, I have realised that "balance" embraces at least two meanings — static and dynamic, as we have discussed — and maybe more. And that our everyday use of "balance" often mixes the two up, and uses them simultaneously.

I’m sure you have valid reasons for that. Perhaps you could expound on what they are?

I thought I just did. What is it that I have left unclear?

There are no issues with clarity. I just wanted you to provide some actual examples of where balance is static.

[Sy Borg]

There is a recent study that has consciousness emerging at the critical boundary between order and chaos in brain dynamics. A balance point, if you will. Again, it's obviously not static because, if there's anything that consciousness is not, it's static.

They based the work on neural networks human brain data. They found that consciousness peaks at the "edge of chaos"—a state where the neural networks balance structured and chaotic activities.

Ref: Kim and Lee 2022 study titled "The critical dynamics of complex systems and the consciousness".

Intuitively, that makes sense to me. Many complex and interesting phenomena occur on the boundary between domains, eg. seashores/beaches, the boundary between the lithosphere, hydrosphere and atmosphere. They can be seen as dynamic balance zones.

Without going into too much detail, I used to experience hypnopompic hallucinations when I experienced sleep paralysis, which occurs at a point between being asleep and awake. For me, this experientially supports what you say. Perhaps the study also.

A good example. That mid state can also result in lucid thought.

More examples. Ecotones are the transition zone between biomes, eg. seashores, between forest and savannah. These zones tend to be biodiversity hotspots. Tectonic plate boundaries famously induce plenty of action. Or hybrid human cultures that appear between two cultures, resulting in unique art, food, etc.

[Fanman]

There is a recent study that has consciousness emerging at the critical boundary between order and chaos in brain dynamics. A balance point, if you will. Again, it's obviously not static because, if there's anything that consciousness is not, it's static.

They based the work on neural networks human brain data. They found that consciousness peaks at the "edge of chaos"—a state where the neural networks balance structured and chaotic activities.

Ref: Kim and Lee 2022 study titled "The critical dynamics of complex systems and the consciousness".

Intuitively, that makes sense to me. Many complex and interesting phenomena occur on the boundary between domains, eg. seashores/beaches, the boundary between the lithosphere, hydrosphere and atmosphere. They can be seen as dynamic balance zones.

Without going into too much detail, I used to experience hypnopompic hallucinations when I experienced sleep paralysis, which occurs at a point between being asleep and awake. For me, this experientially supports what you say. Perhaps the study also.

A good example. That mid state can also result in lucid thought.

More examples. Ecotones are the transition zone between biomes, eg. seashores, between forest and savannah. These zones tend to be biodiversity hotspots. Tectonic plate boundaries famously induce plenty of action. Or hybrid human cultures that appear between two cultures, resulting in unique art, food, etc.

So, it seems that when the point where different systems meet and balance momentarily loses calibration, peak events occur during the recalibration, such as with hybrid human cultures, unique art, food, etc.

[Pattern-chaser]

For myself, I have realised that "balance" embraces at least two meanings — static and dynamic, as we have discussed — and maybe more. And that our everyday use of "balance" often mixes the two up, and uses them simultaneously.

I’m sure you have valid reasons for that. Perhaps you could expound on what they are?

I thought I just did. What is it that I have left unclear?

There are no issues with clarity. I just wanted you to provide some actual examples of where balance is static.

Ah, OK. But there's a bit of a problem here.

Static balance reduces to simple stasis; the "balance" part seems to fade, somehow. And stasis, true stasis, doesn't exist in our real world. Or if it does, it is quite uncommon. For true stasis is frozen death; chaos is expelled, there is only order. Fixed, rigid, and unchanging order. And there's not a lot of that in the part of our universe's timeline where we exist.

So examples? I suppose I could cobble a few together, but they would be artificial and contrived. Not really convincing, or even useful to our philosophical consideration of balance.

So in practice, I'm not sure that I can offer meaningful and useful examples of static balance. But perhaps that's just me being daft, and someone else can see the gazillions of examples that are somehow evading me?

[Pattern-chaser]

There is a recent study that has consciousness emerging at the critical boundary between order and chaos in brain dynamics. A balance point, if you will. Again, it's obviously not static because, if there's anything that consciousness is not, it's static.

They based the work on neural networks human brain data. They found that consciousness peaks at the "edge of chaos"—a state where the neural networks balance structured and chaotic activities.

Ref: Kim and Lee 2022 study titled "The critical dynamics of complex systems and the consciousness".

Intuitively, that makes sense to me. Many complex and interesting phenomena occur on the boundary between domains, eg. seashores/beaches, the boundary between the lithosphere, hydrosphere and atmosphere. They can be seen as dynamic balance zones.

Without going into too much detail, I used to experience hypnopompic hallucinations when I experienced sleep paralysis, which occurs at a point between being asleep and awake. For me, this experientially supports what you say. Perhaps the study also.

So would it be fair to say, in other words, that consciousness takes place (as above), founded upon a dynamic equilibrium of structure (order) and chaos? I think it might be.

[Fanman]

For myself, I have realised that "balance" embraces at least two meanings — static and dynamic, as we have discussed — and maybe more. And that our everyday use of "balance" often mixes the two up, and uses them simultaneously.

I’m sure you have valid reasons for that. Perhaps you could expound on what they are?

I thought I just did. What is it that I have left unclear?

There are no issues with clarity. I just wanted you to provide some actual examples of where balance is static.

Ah, OK. But there's a bit of a problem here.

Static balance reduces to simple stasis; the "balance" part seems to fade, somehow. And stasis, true stasis, doesn't exist in our real world. Or if it does, it is quite uncommon. For true stasis is frozen death; chaos is expelled, there is only order. Fixed, rigid, and unchanging order. And there's not a lot of that in the part of our universe's timeline where we exist.

So examples? I suppose I could cobble a few together, but they would be artificial and contrived. Not really convincing, or even useful to our philosophical consideration of balance.

So in practice, I'm not sure that I can offer meaningful and useful examples of static balance. But perhaps that's just me being daft, and someone else can see the gazillions of examples that are somehow evading me?

I think that you're right due to how balance works. I don't think there's an example of where it is static in the natural universe. To do what it does, it must be able to respond and adapt when the system it is working in changes. And I don't think there are any naturally occurring systems or states that don’t go through change.

[Fanman]

There is a recent study that has consciousness emerging at the critical boundary between order and chaos in brain dynamics. A balance point, if you will. Again, it's obviously not static because, if there's anything that consciousness is not, it's static.

They based the work on neural networks human brain data. They found that consciousness peaks at the "edge of chaos"—a state where the neural networks balance structured and chaotic activities.

Ref: Kim and Lee 2022 study titled "The critical dynamics of complex systems and the consciousness".

Intuitively, that makes sense to me. Many complex and interesting phenomena occur on the boundary between domains, eg. seashores/beaches, the boundary between the lithosphere, hydrosphere and atmosphere. They can be seen as dynamic balance zones.

Without going into too much detail, I used to experience hypnopompic hallucinations when I experienced sleep paralysis, which occurs at a point between being asleep and awake. For me, this experientially supports what you say. Perhaps the study also.

So would it be fair to say, in other words, that consciousness takes place (as above), founded upon a dynamic equilibrium of structure (order) and chaos? I think it might be.

I can certainly agree with that.

[Sy Borg]

There is a recent study that has consciousness emerging at the critical boundary between order and chaos in brain dynamics. A balance point, if you will. Again, it's obviously not static because, if there's anything that consciousness is not, it's static.

They based the work on neural networks human brain data. They found that consciousness peaks at the "edge of chaos"—a state where the neural networks balance structured and chaotic activities.

Ref: Kim and Lee 2022 study titled "The critical dynamics of complex systems and the consciousness".

Intuitively, that makes sense to me. Many complex and interesting phenomena occur on the boundary between domains, eg. seashores/beaches, the boundary between the lithosphere, hydrosphere and atmosphere. They can be seen as dynamic balance zones.

Without going into too much detail, I used to experience hypnopompic hallucinations when I experienced sleep paralysis, which occurs at a point between being asleep and awake. For me, this experientially supports what you say. Perhaps the study also.

A good example. That mid state can also result in lucid thought.

More examples. Ecotones are the transition zone between biomes, eg. seashores, between forest and savannah. These zones tend to be biodiversity hotspots. Tectonic plate boundaries famously induce plenty of action. Or hybrid human cultures that appear between two cultures, resulting in unique art, food, etc.

So, it seems that when the point where different systems meet and balance momentarily loses calibration, peak events occur during the recalibration, such as with hybrid human cultures, unique art, food, etc.

Yes, new phenomena emerge at these zones.

[Fanman]

Without going into too much detail, I used to experience hypnopompic hallucinations when I experienced sleep paralysis, which occurs at a point between being asleep and awake. For me, this experientially supports what you say. Perhaps the study also.

A good example. That mid state can also result in lucid thought.

More examples. Ecotones are the transition zone between biomes, eg. seashores, between forest and savannah. These zones tend to be biodiversity hotspots. Tectonic plate boundaries famously induce plenty of action. Or hybrid human cultures that appear between two cultures, resulting in unique art, food, etc.

So, it seems that when the point where different systems meet and balance momentarily loses calibration, peak events occur during the recalibration, such as with hybrid human cultures, unique art, food, etc.

Yes, new phenomena emerge at these zones.

Then, within human cultures, perhaps we can learn to cultivate and harness the moments when these zones occur. One way I did this (without knowing I was doing it) was to keep a lucid dream journal so that I had a record of the sleep paralysis and accompanying hallucination zone, which allowed me to build on my understanding of it by reflecting on those experiences. Each time it happened, I made a journal entry. It doesn’t happen as much as it used to, and when it does, I don’t have the accompanying hallucinations; however, each recalibration adds something to my life—a quality of knowing and a deepening of my perspective, so to speak. Indeed, if the power of these zones can be cultivated and harnessed, we may have something great in our hands.

[Fanman]

Additionally, Sy, we can tap into these zones.

[Sy Borg]

A good example. That mid state can also result in lucid thought.

More examples. Ecotones are the transition zone between biomes, eg. seashores, between forest and savannah. These zones tend to be biodiversity hotspots. Tectonic plate boundaries famously induce plenty of action. Or hybrid human cultures that appear between two cultures, resulting in unique art, food, etc.

So, it seems that when the point where different systems meet and balance momentarily loses calibration, peak events occur during the recalibration, such as with hybrid human cultures, unique art, food, etc.

Yes, new phenomena emerge at these zones.

Then, within human cultures, perhaps we can learn to cultivate and harness the moments when these zones occur. One way I did this (without knowing I was doing it) was to keep a lucid dream journal so that I had a record of the sleep paralysis and accompanying hallucination zone, which allowed me to build on my understanding of it by reflecting on those experiences. Each time it happened, I made a journal entry. It doesn’t happen as much as it used to, and when it does, I don’t have the accompanying hallucinations; however, each recalibration adds something to my life—a quality of knowing and a deepening of my perspective, so to speak. Indeed, if the power of these zones can be cultivated and harnessed, we may have something great in our hands.

I've heard abut lucid dreams but only ever had a few of them, most of them a long time ago. Certainly people report that lucid dreams can being insight.

If we better understand the boundary of order and chaos we may unravel more mysteries of consciousness. I'm also interested to see how the intersection of human brains and AI develops.