Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Fried Egg]

[post edit] Last sentence should have read "benefits out weight the costs"!

[Pattern-chaser]

I think what you are arguing is that sometimes this damage is worth while because of the benefits it may bring to the mental health of the individual in question.

Yes, that's roughly what I'm saying. To allow a mistaken transition in a child would do untold damage, yes. But NOT allowing a truly-trans child to transition also does untold damage, mental, emotional and wholly-physical too.

This is why I'm making the point that it's not childhood that's the problem, it's making such an insanely difficult decision on their behalf. Even for oneself, such a decision is very hard, but for someone else in your care? In this situation, the difficulty is not childhood per se, it's the decision. And the difficulty of decision is compounded by doing it on someone else's behalf.

[Fried Egg]

I think that my understanding of gender identity or sense of gender is beginning to coalesce around an idea now that I will go on to explain.

My original conception of gender identity was not coherent. I imagined it to be some kind of awareness of one's sex that is something else than simply an awareness of their biological manifestations that are commonly associated with one sex or another. But how can that be? What else is there to be aware of?

Someone who regards themselves as trans is surely fully aware of their biological manifestations that identify them as one sex or another. They are just unhappy with them (or at least they attribute their unhappiness to them) . They desire to be the opposite sex. So I think one's gender identity is their desire to be a particular sex. And one is "trans" when they desire to be the opposite sex.

So this explains why I say I have no gender identity (because I have no desire to be one sex or the other) but of course I am well aware of my actual sex (the way it has biologically manifested).

And if one defines gender identity in this way, I don't think it makes sense to say it could be innate. A desire to be the opposite sex might arise for a variety of reasons, one of which is surely an unhappiness that one attributes to their biological sex and therefore it is understandable why they might want to change their sex. But I don't see how one could be be born with this desire.

[Sy Borg]

I still think that Fried Egg's mistaken in claiming not to have a gender identity.

Gender is a social phenomenon. You are not a man or woman if you live alone on a desert island, you are just you, either a biological male, female or intersexed. Your genitals would only matter in a practical sense, eg. sitting on sand.

If you are a gender and you live in a society, you must have a gender identity in order to function. If you don't have a gender identity, it makes no difference whether you shop in menswear shops or womenswear shops. It won't matter what bathrooms or changing rooms you use. It won't matter what gender your partner is, you're up for it with anyone you like. Most of us gravitate to these things without a second thought, as if we have no gender identity, in much the same way as a fish lives in water without ever considering it.

[Fried Egg]

I still think that Fried Egg's mistaken in claiming not to have a gender identity.

Are you talking about gender identity as I have now come to define it? i.e. the sex one wants to be? If so, how can one be "mistaken" in this regard (any more than they can be mistaken in their sexuality)?

Gender is a social phenomenon. You are not a man or woman if you live alone on a desert island, you are just you, either a biological male, female or intersexed. Your genitals would only matter in a practical sense, eg. sitting on sand.

If you are a gender and you live in a society, you must have a gender identity in order to function. If you don't have a gender identity, it makes no difference whether you shop in menswear shops or womenswear shops. It won't matter what bathrooms or changing rooms you use. It won't matter what gender your partner is, you're up for it with anyone you like. Most of us gravitate to these things without a second thought, as if we have no gender identity, in much the same way as a fish lives in water without ever considering it.

Really, coming to understand what gender identity is has made things a lot clearer for me. You seem to be conflating gender identity with a mere awareness of one's own sex (and the sex of others). But that cannot be what gender identity is. Someone suffering from gender dysphoria is surely well aware of their actual biological sex. They are just deeply unhappy with it and want to change it.

[Sy Borg]

I still think that Fried Egg's mistaken in claiming not to have a gender identity.

Are you talking about gender identity as I have now come to define it? i.e. the sex one wants to be? If so, how can one be "mistaken" in this regard (any more than they can be mistaken in their sexuality)?

Gender is a social phenomenon. You are not a man or woman if you live alone on a desert island, you are just you, either a biological male, female or intersexed. Your genitals would only matter in a practical sense, eg. sitting on sand.

If you are a gender and you live in a society, you must have a gender identity in order to function. If you don't have a gender identity, it makes no difference whether you shop in menswear shops or womenswear shops. It won't matter what bathrooms or changing rooms you use. It won't matter what gender your partner is, you're up for it with anyone you like. Most of us gravitate to these things without a second thought, as if we have no gender identity, in much the same way as a fish lives in water without ever considering it.

Really, coming to understand what gender identity is has made things a lot clearer for me. You seem to be conflating gender identity with a mere awareness of one's own sex (and the sex of others). But that cannot be what gender identity is. Someone suffering from gender dysphoria is surely well aware of their actual biological sex. They are just deeply unhappy with it and want to change it.

Jut as you are happy with your gender and don't want to change it. Each is an expression of gender identity. It's almost impossible not to have a gender identity in a society. Again, gender is a social phenomenon - it's an aspect of how humans interact. If you live on a desert island, that's another matter - there's no sociality, thus no gender, only one's sex and (unrealised) sexuality.

[Pattern-chaser]

And if one defines gender identity in this way, I don't think it makes sense to say it could be innate.

To me, that is only evidence that we should not define gender identity as you have done, trivialising it into submission. It is much more than desire, and much, much, deeper than desire.

[Fried Egg]

And if one defines gender identity in this way, I don't think it makes sense to say it could be innate.

To me, that is only evidence that we should not define gender identity as you have done, trivialising it into submission. It is much more than desire, and much, much, deeper than desire.

No other way makes sense to me.

Again though, I don't see why you think it trivialises it. If this desire arises out of a deep and genuine unhappiness with their body as it is, then it leaves us in the same situation as we are now. i.e. we may know of no other way to relieve that unhappiness besides allowing them to transition.

It simply relieves us of this mystical notion of a gendered "soul" which does nothing to enrich our understanding of how to treat this condition.

[Pattern-chaser]

And if one defines gender identity in this way, I don't think it makes sense to say it could be innate.

To me, that is only evidence that we should not define gender identity as you have done, trivialising it into submission. It is much more than desire, and much, much, deeper than desire.

No other way makes sense to me.

And perhaps that just doesn't matter to you and me? We are both in the happy position that our sex and gender correspond, so this discussion really doesn't affect us at all, in any direct way.

Again though, I don't see why you think it trivialises it. If this desire arises out of a deep and genuine unhappiness with their body as it is, then it leaves us in the same situation as we are now. i.e. we may know of no other way to relieve that unhappiness besides allowing them to transition.

This isn't just "unhappiness", in the eyes of a trans person. It's a great deal deeper, hence my mention of trivialisation. You just don't seem able, or willing, to appreciate how deep, how basic, as in 'foundational', this is, for those to whom it matters most.

It simply relieves us of this mystical notion of a gendered "soul" which does nothing to enrich our understanding of how to treat this condition.

You seem to be complaining of a lack of rigour, and I'm wondering if that matters? This is definitely not a simple bio-mechanical condition, it's an overall across-the-whole-bodymind thing, I think. And so some of our "understanding" needs to embrace emotions and feelings, such as accompany psychological things. Hence the *necessary* lack of precision?

[Fried Egg]

And perhaps that just doesn't matter to you and me? We are both in the happy position that our sex and gender correspond, so this discussion really doesn't affect us at all, in any direct way.

How well we understand the concept of gender identity matters to you, me, and the rest of society because we need to know how best to deal with people who are directly affected. And this is especially if we are to make decisions on behalf of those who aren't able to make fully informed decisions for themselves (such as children).

This isn't just "unhappiness", in the eyes of a trans person. It's a great deal deeper, hence my mention of trivialisation. You just don't seem able, or willing, to appreciate how deep, how basic, as in 'foundational', this is, for those to whom it matters most.

Suddenly you are the authority on how it feels to be trans despite admitting in your previous paragraph that you aren't directly affected?

What is this thing that is "deep", basic" and "foundational". You merely talk about the strength of feeling for something without really telling me what this thing is.

It is not an awareness of their sex because they are not delusional and presumably fully cognizant of the current state of their body (i.e. it is not like anorexia in which the sufferer is delusional about the state of their own body).

What else then is there besides an awareness of a desire to change (however deep, basic and foundation it might be)? For perhaps a variety of reasons, they don't like their biological sex and/or the gender roles that come attached. Why might ask from where this desire to change comes from but I agree that we might never know or be able to "solve" it.

My main concern, especially with children, is that we take every effort to make sure this desire isn't misplaced (in that they aren't misplacing the cause of their unhappiness to something which is not the cause).

[Pattern-chaser]

This isn't just "unhappiness", in the eyes of a trans person. It's a great deal deeper, hence my mention of trivialisation. You just don't seem able, or willing, to appreciate how deep, how basic, as in 'foundational', this is, for those to whom it matters most.

Suddenly you are the authority on how it feels to be trans despite admitting in your previous paragraph that you aren't directly affected?

Please don't make something out of nothing. I have said many times in this topic that I am not an expert, or an "authority". You and I are not directly affected because we aren't trans. But you only have to talk face-to-face with a trans person, and they will tell you roughly the same thing that I have. If they don't, fair enough, please pass back to me what you learn. Thanks.

What is this thing that is "deep", basic" and "foundational". You merely talk about the strength of feeling for something without really telling me what this thing is.

This is one of those things that we can only explain or describe indirectly, almost by analogy. Because feelings, their depth and meaning, are not easy to express 'out loud'. So I/we fall back on words like "deep", basic" and "foundational". The human 'sense of self' is not a simple thing, as we are all aware.