What do you believe?

[willowtreeme]

I fear to question my faith for fear of loosing it, and in the fear of doing so I fear I have already lost it.

We can never truly lose what is a part of us.

And I would say that "in the fear of doing so", you will find that you never had the faith in the first place. Real faith is "taking that giant leap" into the darkness, into nothingness. Faith has no fear, it simply is.

Peace

_________________________________

We find by losing. We hold fast
by letting go. We become something
new by ceasing to be something old.
This seems to be close to the heart
of that mystery. I know no more now
than I ever did about the far side of
death as the last letting-go of all,
but now I know that I do not need
to know, and that I do not need
to be afraid of not knowing.
God knows. That is all that matters.

Frederick Buechner

[Akhenaten]

I 'believe' in nothing. I either know, or I do not know. Isn't that what faith is supposed to be? Knowing.

What I know is that every man and woman and child has a heart, a soul, and an imagination. The products of these things cannot be wrong, atleast for the person in question.

I also know that humanity's greatest failing is overruling their own soul, based on the 'brain work' of someone thousands of miles away, that they have never met.

[Belinda]

Isn't that what faith is supposed to be? Knowing.

(Akhenaten)

May be the meaning of 'faith' for many people. For me, faith consists in trusting even when there is no possibility of knowing.Faith is akin to optimism, but more beliefless than optimism.

[Invictus_88]

I 'believe' in nothing. I either know, or I do not know. Isn't that what faith is supposed to be? Knowing.

What I know is that every man and woman and child has a heart, a soul, and an imagination. The products of these things cannot be wrong, atleast for the person in question.

I also know that humanity's greatest failing is overruling their own soul, based on the 'brain work' of someone thousands of miles away, that they have never met.

Knowing is not faith. Not at all. Knowing is just knowing.

Though I'd be interested to see how you 'know' we all have souls. I feel sure that we don't, so we must have quite different definitions..

You know what you claim to. Your faith is - in this case - the faith that your faculties are sufficient for you to say that you know things rather than just believe them.

[Akhenaten]

Though I'd be interested to see how you 'know' we all have souls. I feel sure that we don't, so we must have quite different definitions..

Indeed, we likely do. I consider a soul to be the defining energy of lifeforms, or the bio-electricity that flows through our bodies. The laws of Conservation of Energy states that there is always the same amount of energy in the universe, and this says to me that the energy inside of us continues to flow after physical death... I take this as personal proof of a soul, though I do not expect it to do so for others, as my view of a soul has nothing to do with the concept of perception after death.

You know what you claim to. Your faith is - in this case - the faith that your faculties are sufficient for you to say that you know things rather than just believe them.

You are quite astute

[Belinda]

I consider a soul to be the defining energy of lifeforms, or the bio-electricity that flows through our bodies.

Do those two entities have definite parameters or are they as vague as souls? This is an actual question.

I mean, take 'the bio-electricity that flows through our bodies', do you mean the sum total of all the b-e t f t o b's, or do you mean all the b-e t f t o b's within any given minute, or hour, in volts, ohms or amps?

What is the defining energy of lifeforms? How does the defining energy of lifeforms differ, if indeed it does differ, from energy as defined by Einstein?

Why posit 'souls' when you mean something that does not carry religious baggage?

[Akhenaten]

1: A soul is not spiritually dependant, I believe it is meerly an aspect of nature (I.E. we share this with all other living organisms). Therefore, simply due to a lack of religion does not negate all aspects that can be related to it.

Example: I do not believe in Christianity, the Bible is printed on Paper, therefore I do not believe in paper?

2: I mean all of the bio-electricity in your system, always. Einstein states, in the conservation of energy, that the ammount of Energy in this particular 'dimension' of our relatity never changes... it is static. In this we find that there is never any more nor less potential energy in our bodies and minds. So...

Example: The activity of the brain is equivalent to that of 1000 kHz processor with 40 Gbits of states. Of this, our perception is barely 2 gigabits. Aka Conscious Thought. In this we find that the mind never slows, it does not decrease in energy... meerly our conscious perception increases or decreases as situationally dependant

The question comes to one that is slightly more simplistic than the ones you seem to want to overlay onto the topic.

[Coahtemoc]

In my own terms, I believe in various philosophies similar to those present in:

Common Native American beliefs

Taosim

Buddhism

Confuscianism

[Invictus_88]

You can't believe in them, because you don't understand them.

What you mean is you have heard of them and like the idea of believing in them. if this is coupled with wanting to learn quite deeply about them, then this is no bad thing.

[mark black]

Invictus88,

You can't believe in them, because you don't understand them.

You don't have to understand something to believe in it. Indeed, incomprehension is inseperable from belief. Personally, I try not to have beliefs, and try to have reasoned opinions - but where I don't understand, it's because I don't understand that it is a belief, as opposed to knowledge.

mb.

[Invictus_88]

There is a difference between knowing that there are aspects of something that are unknowable and beyond comprehension, and not having paid enough attention to something to know how it works or what it means.

He can't believe what he claims to, because he's clearly not understood anything of them. A theologian, by contrast, may validly believe in God even if he accepts the essential indescribability of the Divine Being.

[mark black]

Invictus88,

I see the distinction, but how do you know what he knows of these things? And, let's suppose that the Divine Being is indescribable - then can't I believe whatever I want about Him/Her/It? All I'm saying, for arguments sake, is that maybe the shape of these things is defined by the needs of the believer rather than something objective that can be known.

mb.

[Nietzsche]

A perfect example of why religion not only hold human kind baack but is not needed.

The Medieval Times were dominateed by the Church, everything revolved around the church. What you ate, where you slept, and what you did on a day to day basis. And what did it get us..A plague and 1000 years of recession of learning. If it wasn't for the Turks taking Constantinople, God only know how much longer it wouldve lasted. As soon as some freethinkers came along...we get the Renaissance.

And more people have died doing some stupid **** for "God" than anything else...ever


The Bible is an unrealiable, made up, unhistorical, and full of exxagurations and simply impossible things!

[Coahtemoc]

A perfect example of why religion not only hold human kind baack but is not needed.

The Medieval Times were dominateed by the Church, everything revolved around the church. What you ate, where you slept, and what you did on a day to day basis. And what did it get us..A plague and 1000 years of recession of learning. If it wasn't for the Turks taking Constantinople, God only know how much longer it wouldve lasted. As soon as some freethinkers came along...we get the Renaissance.

And more people have died doing some stupid **** for "God" than anything else...ever


The Bible is an unrealiable, made up, unhistorical, and full of exxagurations and simply impossible things!

Very true! ^^ At least, in my opinion. oO And to Invictus_88: Why is it that you say I don't understand what I say I believe in? I must have at least some understanding of such things if I have an opinion about them or belief of them. oO

[Invictus_88]

And, let's suppose that the Divine Being is indescribable - then can't I believe whatever I want about Him/Her/It? All I'm saying, for arguments sake, is that maybe the shape of these things is defined by the needs of the believer rather than something objective that can be known.

mb.

The Divine Being may be indescribable, but one can still know things about how it works, and what theories are put forward. I cannot impose upon God any attribute and form I wish simply because I am ignorant of Theology, and if I were ignorant of the relevant Theologies it would meaningless for me to proclaim faith in several different deities or religions.