Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Xris
Posts: 5963
Joined: December 27th, 2010, 11:37 am
Location: Cornwall UK

Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Xris »

Belinda wrote:I watched the television documentary about an Amish family in which the children were clearly not abused and yet they were also indoctrinated in Christian beliefs as well as Amish rituals and customs. One seldom sees such a happy family. I had to think again about religion being child abuse. I think now that religious indoctrination is not child abuse as long as the society in which the particular religious culture in embedded is compliant with the larger society, and does not work to exclude the larger society. The Amish culture lives happily within and alongside the wider American culture, and the wider American culture likewise fits with the civilised world.

If the indoctrinated Amish children were being taught a divisive religious doctrine the case would be different because the children would be put at the disadvantage of alienation towards outsiders. This does not seems to be the case because the children as well as the parents were welcoming and friendly to the television cameras. The difficulty for Amish children may be that if at some time they have to join the wider society in which they will be expected to be educated people they will have to unlearn Biblical literalism.
It's still abuse to me Belinda. They restrict the freedom other children enjoy, exclude any who do not abide by the dogmatic belief system. We only see true freedom to chose when a balanced education is allowed. They dare not stand against what they have been taught for fear of rejection.
Belinda
Premium Member
Posts: 13821
Joined: July 10th, 2008, 7:02 pm
Location: UK

Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Belinda »

Misty wrote in response to my favourable impression on Amish:
Like all organizations and religions there are many sects to any belief system. The documentary you saw was unique. There is also a TV program about how the Amish teenager is allowed to leave home to live in the "world" for a time, then they have to decide whether they will come back home and embrace that life or leave home for the "world's" ways. If they choose the world they are not allowed to come home again nor have anything to do with their families for the rest of their lives. Tough love?
Tough love, no! Divisive! I did not know this . It seems then that Amish culture makes insufficient allowance for their children's freedom to choose when they are grown up. Nevertheles, as long as the Amish person is happy to remain indoctrinated and the Amish culture stays within the law of the land, and Amish society is also self sufficient enough to survive in its isolation, the indoctrinated Amish child or adult is not likely to be unhappy because of a lack of any of the essentials of a thoroughly satisfactory life. After all , the alternative is not completely desirable to say the least.

By contrast with the Amish. even including the divisiveness that Misty describes, the Pakistan culture of family honour which, if not purely doctrinal, has religious overtones is not only illegal but is also immoral according to civilised standards of morality. This is very low grade within the scale of right and wrong pertaining to indoctrinated beliefs, whereas the Amish indoctrinated belief is okay, maybe better.


I do hold out for education not indoctrination, but I assume that we are talking about education in the context of national education within the wider society, not isolated and self sufficient sects. I only mentioned the Amish because not every isolated and self sufficient sect holds immoral doctrines.They don't seems to proselytise.

However it is wrong to indoctrinate a child (or adult) with ideas that are incompatible with the wider world , when the person is going to have to live in the wider world.

The Amish are not a problem in the US, I guess for refusing to integrate; they don't break any laws and are good citizens.
Socialist
Xris
Posts: 5963
Joined: December 27th, 2010, 11:37 am
Location: Cornwall UK

Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Xris »

The Amish are encountering profound problems. Land in America has suddenly become a scarcity and as families grow they have to change their agricultural heritage. How do they maintain a dogma that relies on certain basic concepts? It is in crisis and the only way is to look beyond their confines and they are ill prepared. Indoctrination has limited their ability to adjust and adapt.
User avatar
Misty
Premium Member
Posts: 5934
Joined: August 10th, 2011, 8:13 pm
Location: United States of America

Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Misty »

Belinda wrote:Misty wrote in response to my favourable impression on Amish:

By contrast with the Amish. even including the divisiveness that Misty describes, the Pakistan culture of family honour which, if not purely doctrinal, has religious overtones is not only illegal but is also immoral according to civilised standards of morality. This is very low grade within the scale of right and wrong pertaining to indoctrinated beliefs, whereas the Amish indoctrinated belief is okay, maybe better.

Honor killing in Pakistan is not illegal. There are women trying to change their laws. The TV news report I saw a few days ago showed the government saying they will not change the laws about honor killings. Women are not important, they are property sanctioned by the religion of that country. Beyond immoral. Insane.

The Amish people are not stupid even though they don't embrace much education. I am sure there is a hierarchy within the community that has money. They do sell products of their making to the public. Their indoctrination is religious and they believe anyone not of their belief/lifestyle will go to hell. Their community protects them from the outside world and one who deviates (after trial period for teens) will be excommunicated. I went to Pennsylvania to see their world and they had the most beautiful crops, lush and green, the men working barefoot. In the town close by the women were selling their wares. While portraying a gentle lifestyle they are human and encounter human problems of abuse, greed etc., birth defects, as does the general populations, generally kept quiet.
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.

I am Lion, hear me ROAR! Meow.
User avatar
Bermudj
Posts: 1370
Joined: December 17th, 2011, 1:28 pm
Location: West Hampstead, London, UK

Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Bermudj »

Misty wrote:...While portraying a gentle lifestyle they are human and encounter human problems of abuse, greed etc., birth defects, as does the general populations, generally kept quiet.
Agree. Human beings are human beings and these problems will always surface. What is important is how these problems are addressed, rather than those who argue that because we are such and such a group we are privileged, or chosen by God in some way or another and exempt from all of these human problems.
Do whatever you do, do what a good man would do, and what is a good man?, I do not know, but at every point, every turn, do what a good man would do.

Jesús Antonio Bermúdez-Silva
Fanman
Posts: 3258
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Fanman »

Xris,
Xris wrote:The Amish are encountering profound problems. Land in America has suddenly become a scarcity and as families grow they have to change their agricultural heritage. How do they maintain a dogma that relies on certain basic concepts? It is in crisis and the only way is to look beyond their confines and they are ill prepared. Indoctrination has limited their ability to adjust and adapt.
I am curious, where did you get this information from? The documentary that I watched about the Armish community never mentioned any of the problems that you have cited. In what ways has indoctrination "limited their ability to adjust and adapt." Do you have any examples?
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
User avatar
Misty
Premium Member
Posts: 5934
Joined: August 10th, 2011, 8:13 pm
Location: United States of America

Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Misty »

Bermudj wrote: Agree. Human beings are human beings and these problems will always surface. What is important is how these problems are addressed, rather than those who argue that because we are such and such a group we are privileged, or chosen by God in some way or another and exempt from all of these human problems.

Agree. The Amish also take care of themselves and do not look to the government for help. (this does not say there have not been occasions when some called Amish have received help - I don't know - but the general life style of the Amish would not seek government help.
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.

I am Lion, hear me ROAR! Meow.
Xris
Posts: 5963
Joined: December 27th, 2010, 11:37 am
Location: Cornwall UK

Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Xris »

Fanman wrote:Xris,



I am curious, where did you get this information from? The documentary that I watched about the Armish community never mentioned any of the problems that you have cited. In what ways has indoctrination "limited their ability to adjust and adapt." Do you have any examples?
I wonder if you doubt my posts Fanman. You constantly require proof. In the past when land was readily available the Amish young would set up new communities. Now that choice has been removed their life has become complicated and their blinkered life style is prohibiting them finding alternatives. I will endeavour to give you a link but in future could you try searching yourself. Thanks xris.
User avatar
Bertram_Colton
Posts: 26
Joined: August 4th, 2012, 2:18 pm

Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Bertram_Colton »

To Xris:

Hey, no disrespect but you have got to provide those links you said you were going to or at least some exact source so it can be googled. Even if you don't provide every piece evidence for all of your assumptions. If you let the opposing arguer to look up your evidence we won't get to hear how you interpreted it.
Belinda
Premium Member
Posts: 13821
Joined: July 10th, 2008, 7:02 pm
Location: UK

Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Belinda »

Fanman wrote:Xris,



I am curious, where did you get this information from? The documentary that I watched about the Armish community never mentioned any of the problems that you have cited. In what ways has indoctrination "limited their ability to adjust and adapt." Do you have any examples?

Xris is right that the economic base of any society is what determines the success or failure of the religious doctrine . If Xris is correct in his information it follows that the Amish will be in trouble due to the inertia of maladaptive indoctrination. By 'maladaptive' in this instance I mean that medieval beliefs i.e. Biblical literalism , clash with modern science, upon which any modern economy is based. It is not necessary for Xris to produce evidence of whether or not the Amish will have to change their agricultural heritage to understand this basic economic principle that means of subsistence is the material cause of specific religious beliefs.
Socialist
User avatar
Bertram_Colton
Posts: 26
Joined: August 4th, 2012, 2:18 pm

Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Bertram_Colton »

I can't address all your points at once but I don't think it is true that a modern economy (capitalism for example) is based on the empiric method. John Adams (founder guy) never gives solid evidence that capitalism works he just gave good emotional reasons why. Like people are competitive and competition is good.

So saying that clashing with modern economic ideas equals clashing with science is not true.

More specifically the founder of capitalism never ran tests to see if capitalism would or does work and this shows that modern economies are based off of intuition or feeling rather than empiric reasoning. If you agree with me and would like to rephrase your argument that is fine.
Belinda wrote:

Xris is right that the economic base of any society is what determines the success or failure of the religious doctrine . If Xris is correct in his information it follows that the Amish will be in trouble due to the inertia of maladaptive indoctrination. By 'maladaptive' in this instance I mean that medieval beliefs i.e. Biblical literalism , clash with modern science, upon which any modern economy is based. It is not necessary for Xris to produce evidence of whether or not the Amish will have to change their agricultural heritage to understand this basic economic principle that means of subsistence is the material cause of specific religious beliefs.
Belinda
Premium Member
Posts: 13821
Joined: July 10th, 2008, 7:02 pm
Location: UK

Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Belinda »

I said that any modern economy is based upon science. Science, as contrasted with pre-scientific methods of production. Whether the political superstructure is capitalism or communism, the society will fail to produce adequately if modern science is not adhered to. Even the Amish in their determinedly agricultural way need to know how to cure diseases and injuries in the livestock, and how to fertilise their land in a sustainable way. These skills are enhanced by or in many cases depend upon scientific knowledge. I would be very surprised if the Amish could sell enough oproduce unless their means of production is sufficiently scientifically correct
Socialist
User avatar
Bertram_Colton
Posts: 26
Joined: August 4th, 2012, 2:18 pm

Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Bertram_Colton »

So if the Amish do use empiric methods (ex. to build good houses) and society uses empiric methods (ex. to create a efficient system of trade) than the Amish are not clashing with science. But rather something else instead.
User avatar
Jjpregler
Posts: 82
Joined: June 16th, 2012, 1:14 am

Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Jjpregler »

I don't see the Amish doing bad at all. There are a couple Amish Markets near me run by Amish who travel from Lancaster every Thursday, Friday and Saturday and both of them are completely packed when they are opened. They serve quality food and goods with great service that many are willing to spend a little more for their products. It doesn't seem as if they are hurting from the looks of their business.
User avatar
Bertram_Colton
Posts: 26
Joined: August 4th, 2012, 2:18 pm

Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Bertram_Colton »

Sure, and I think they are actually better businessmen (or is that businesspersons) than the average american citizen. I mean, if we could get every american citizen to at least try to start a business our economic troubles might even end. Thats a bit of an exaggeration I know)

-- Updated August 5th, 2012, 11:59 am to add the following --

I can't remember what the main question was anymore.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Religion, Theism and Mythology”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021