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What creates morality?

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Aristocles
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Aristocles » September 13th, 2019, 10:21 am

Kaz_1983 wrote:
September 13th, 2019, 9:35 am
Aristocles wrote:
September 13th, 2019, 8:43 am




Upon reflection, I find them rather difficult to distinguish, but seemingly integral to the whole of that which creates morality.
Well if you believe in subjective morality (which the large, large majority do), you've got problems here...unless you believe there are objective moral properties and facts in objects/actions, with nobody to perceive it to be immoral (not even the 2 yr old).. IT IS NOT IMMORAL.
Would I then have objective problems with the large majority? Could a subjectivist make any truth claims, such as anything is/is not moral?

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Re: What creates morality?

Post by detail » September 13th, 2019, 1:18 pm

We should define morality . Perphaps as the inverse of saliva emitted by an old politician seeing a young sexual woman.

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Felix
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Felix » September 13th, 2019, 2:00 pm

Kaz_1983: Well if you believe in subjective morality (which the large, large majority do), you've got problems here...unless you believe there are objective moral properties and facts in objects/actions, with nobody to perceive it to be immoral (not even the 2 yr old)... IT IS NOT IMMORAL.
A silly argument. It's rather like saying, "if the perpetrator of a terrible crime does not get caught, that crime is not immoral." An act is considered to be immoral, senseless murder in this case, regardless of whether particular instances of it are known to us.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

Kaz_1983
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Kaz_1983 » September 13th, 2019, 7:57 pm

Felix wrote:
September 13th, 2019, 2:00 pm
Kaz_1983: Well if you believe in subjective morality (which the large, large majority do), you've got problems here...unless you believe there are objective moral properties and facts in objects/actions, with nobody to perceive it to be immoral (not even the 2 yr old)... IT IS NOT IMMORAL.
A silly argument. It's rather like saying, "if the perpetrator of a terrible crime does not get caught, that crime is not immoral." An act is considered to be immoral, senseless murder in this case, regardless of whether particular instances of it are known to us.
So there are some mind-independent, objective moral properties and facts that are inherently linked to the action in question?

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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Kaz_1983 » September 13th, 2019, 8:15 pm

Felix wrote:
September 13th, 2019, 2:00 pm
A silly argument. It's rather like saying, "if the perpetrator of a terrible crime does not get caught, that crime is not immoral."
Nothing like that..

In your example the public are aware of the terrible crime in question. See I'm not talking about whether the criminal is caught or not, which yours does. In my example nobody had any knowledge of it occurring in the first place.

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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Felix » September 13th, 2019, 9:23 pm

Kaz_1983: In my example nobody had any knowledge of it occurring in the first place.
So it's an imaginary crime, no one has ever known of the existence of either the murderer or his victim?
So there are some mind-independent, objective moral properties and facts that are inherently linked to the action in question?
I don't know of anything that is "mind independent," but yes, moral sentiments are objective in the sense that they are common to all people of sound mind. We can of course argue about their origin, whether they're "God given," the product of evolutionary biology, nature and/or nurture, etc., but it's easy to see that no society would survive without such moral compunctions, they would kill one another off. This may in fact happen to the human race, they're working hard at it, success may be imminent.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Kaz_1983 » September 13th, 2019, 11:10 pm

Felix wrote:
September 13th, 2019, 9:23 pm
So it's an imaginary crime, no one has ever known of the existence of either the murderer or his victim?
Say someone kills another person and that nobody ever finds out about it happening... now this has happened in the past and it isn't just a "fictional" crime but something that has happened before and will happen again.
I don't know of anything that is "mind independent," but yes, moral sentiments are objective in the sense that they are common to all people of sound mind.
Even if everybody on earth believed that the sky is yellow, does that make it objectively true that the sky is yellow? Just because everybody on earth has a shared subjective experience, that doesn't mean it's objective just because everybody agrees on something.

I just don't believe the act of killing is inherently "wrong" or "immoral" until it can be discovered and therefore judged.

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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Kaz_1983 » September 14th, 2019, 2:46 am

Do you believe that there are objective moral properties are present in actions and/or objects? Yes or no.. which is it?

Yes.

That means an individual subjectivity is not needed. Nor is thier perception, emotions.. etc etc = morality is objective.

"Murder is always bad.."

No.

If you don't believe such properties exist - an individuals subjectivity is NEEDED in order for something to be "moral or immoral" and "right or wrong" = morality is subjective.

"We judge that murder is bad.."

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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Felix » September 14th, 2019, 4:50 am

Kaz_1983: If you don't believe such properties exist - an individuals subjectivity is NEEDED in order for something to be "moral or immoral" and "right or wrong" = morality is subjective.
That is your conclusion? I think it's an error to propose that morality is either objective or subjective. It is both, because we share a common nature and no one grows up in a vacuum.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Kaz_1983 » September 14th, 2019, 6:57 am

Felix wrote:
September 14th, 2019, 4:50 am
Kaz_1983: If you don't believe such properties exist - an individuals subjectivity is NEEDED in order for something to be "moral or immoral" and "right or wrong" = morality is subjective.
That is your conclusion? I think it's an error to propose that morality is either objective or subjective. It is both, because we share a common nature and no one grows up in a vacuum.
I admit it's kinda objective too, see the values we as a society hold are objective but it's subjective in the sense of whether we "buy into it" or not. It's based on subjectivity.

So yes, if someone has the position that morality is subjective - then they have to accept "what if a psychopath was to kill another human being, with the knowledge...."

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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Kaz_1983 » September 14th, 2019, 12:07 pm

Disregard the above post.

Let’s suppose that you claim to live by the standard that it’s wrong to disobey the law. You value not breaking the law. To act in a right/moral way, you must not break the law.

Say then, you invited me to your friend's house. When I arrived I bought drugs, then I decided to get involved with raping teenage girls and finally I got involved with killing the girls too.

I can say objectively, that your behaviour was wrong.

I witnessed you buying drugs, raping girls and participating in murdering some girls too. I can say this objectively because I used your personal moral standards to judge your actions. But, your subjectively meant that you chose that as your moral standard and will be judged upon it.

For example:
It's objectively true that you believe:

"blue is better than red"

If somebody thinks that "red is better than blue", they are objectively wrong. But, it was based on your subjective opinion that "blue is better than red"

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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Felix » September 14th, 2019, 2:57 pm

"Blue is better than red" is not a moral determination.
Kaz_1983: See the values we as a society hold are objective but it's subjective in the sense of whether we "buy into it" or not. It's based on subjectivity.
Unless you can demonstrate that people "buy in" to acting morally or acting psychotically, your premise is purely hypothetical. I have normal sight, and thus have the usual formation of cones cells in my eyes, i.e., I am not color blind, but I did not "buy in" to this physical trait.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Kaz_1983 » September 14th, 2019, 10:55 pm

Felix wrote:
September 14th, 2019, 2:57 pm
"Blue is better than red" is not a moral determination.
Never said it was. Look...

Some societies view "gay sex to be worse than stealing a chocolate bar", others disagree and believe "stealing a chocolate bar is worse than gay sex"

That value judgement is subjective.
Unless you can demonstrate that people "buy in" to acting morally
You subjectively "buy into" the idea that's it's good for you to use your eyes and legs for their intended purposes tho

If you believe it's bad for.you, go poke your eyes out with sharp knife or jump in front of a car, become paralysed.
I have normal sight, and thus have the usual formation of cones cells in my eyes, i.e., I am not color blind, but I did not "buy in" to this physical trait.
Being able to see colour is indeed objective but choosing to use your eyes for that purpose is subjective..

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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Kaz_1983 » September 14th, 2019, 11:28 pm

Your a moral realist are you?

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Felix
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Felix » September 15th, 2019, 4:27 am

I'm not sure that we disagree. Morality is essentially subjective but, as I said earlier, it has an objective basis too, and that is our shared human psychology, which includes reason and emotional sensitivity. The combination of these faculties is called emotional intelligence, and people differ in their capacity for it. I would say it is this difference in emotional intelligence that accounts for maltreatment and insensitivity towards others.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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