Announcement: Your votes are in! The January 2019 Philosophy Book of the Month is The Runaway Species: How Human Creativity Remakes the World by David Eagleman and Anthony Brandt.

Should the UK leave the European Union?

Have philosophical discussions about politics, law, and government.
Featured Article: Definition of Freedom - What Freedom Means to Me
Post Reply
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 1582
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Belindi » November 19th, 2018, 10:53 am

I think that the right wing nationalists in Europe are more of a threat not only to their own countries and to Europe, but also to the UK whether or not or how we brexit.

Steve3007
Posts: 5627
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Eratosthenes
Location: UK

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 » November 21st, 2018, 11:23 am

It's looking now as though a second referendum is actually a distinct possibility, since the thing that seems to unite more people than anything else is that the deal still being championed by Theresa May is worse than staying in the EU. So we might yet see the strange spectacle of Remainers and hardline Brexiters both voting to stay in the EU.

Eduk
Posts: 2251
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Eduk » November 22nd, 2018, 1:28 pm

https://youtu.be/BdF2Yk1fBZ0?t=1906

I thought this was interesting. An audience member claiming to have worked in the finance department for the leave campaign says 'the remain campaign lied also, a lot'.

Does anyone who voted remain actually care that the remain campaign lied? Presumably you all knew the remain campaign also lied? So it doesn't count? Did she lie for the right reasons? If everyone knew she was lying then why lie? Presumably while everyone knew they also knew that not everyone knew? Just trying to work out the logic here.

Let me put it this way. In my opinion the correct response to her admission would be jail time (not just for her). If not jail time then at least disbarment from running in or for political parties. There seems to be no standards whatsoever on what claims the government (or those running for government can make).
Unknown means unknown.

Steve3007
Posts: 5627
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Eratosthenes
Location: UK

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 » November 27th, 2018, 7:44 am

Eduk wrote:I thought this was interesting. An audience member claiming to have worked in the finance department for the leave campaign says 'the remain campaign lied also, a lot'.
Yes, although since she didn't have the opportunity to elaborate on what she meant by that, it's difficult to draw any conclusions from it. Perhaps somebody should have asked her what specific things, in her view, each side lied about.

---

I wonder if Trump's latest intervention in the tortuos ongoing Brexit fiasco might actually make a "People's Vote", containing the option to cancel Brexit, more likely.

Hardline Brexiters generally regard the deal on which parliament will be voting on the 11th December as worse than staying in the EU. The Trump administration is reported to be in contact with hardline Brexiters in the British Tory Party, looking for opportunities to overthrow May's government. And, of course, Trump's attitude to trade negotiations is well publicised: they are zero-sum games between pairs of countries with one winner and one loser. So naturally Trump doesn't want any ongoing cooperation between the UK and the rest of the EU. His whole policy is to pick off smaller countries one by one. Countries uniting together to make blocs that are of about the same economic size as the US, and which can't therefore so easily be beaten in the greater poker game (as he sees it) of trade negotiations, is naturally something he's going to try to destroy.

So, it's going to be an interesting couple of weeks leading up to the vote, with Theresa May attacked from all sides, both at home and abroad. I guess she has little, if anything, to use to fight back against Trump.

Eduk
Posts: 2251
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Eduk » November 27th, 2018, 7:52 am

Yes, although since she didn't have the opportunity to elaborate on what she meant by that, it's difficult to draw any conclusions from it. Perhaps somebody should have asked her what specific things, in her view, each side lied about.
I must admit that it is only my assumption, but I think all of it?
Hardline Brexiters generally regard the deal on which parliament will be voting on the 11th December as worse than staying in the EU.
It is. Which is one of the reasons to stay in the EU.
Unknown means unknown.

Steve3007
Posts: 5627
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Eratosthenes
Location: UK

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 » November 27th, 2018, 8:07 am

Eduk wrote:I must admit that it is only my assumption, but I think all of it?
You think both sides lied about all of it? I'm all in favour of a bit of cynicism but I wouldn't go that far. I'm sure there was at least some truth told.

Steve3007
Posts: 5627
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Eratosthenes
Location: UK

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 » November 27th, 2018, 8:10 am

Anyway, Trump's intervention (among other things) seems to be causing the pound to tank against the Euro (and the USD), which is, funnily enough, actually quite good financial news for my family at the moment. Thanks Trumpy. I suppose.

Eduk
Posts: 2251
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Eduk » November 27th, 2018, 8:11 am

You think both sides lied about all of it? I'm all in favour of a bit of cynicism but I wouldn't go that far. I'm sure there was at least some truth told.
I think both sides value electability over reality. So while there is certainly more truth and less truth to some of the arguments put forth I do doubt that any were true (with a normative definition of truth).
Unknown means unknown.

Eduk
Posts: 2251
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Eduk » November 27th, 2018, 8:12 am

seems to be causing the pound to tank against the Euro (and the USD), which is, funnily enough, actually quite good financial news for my family at the moment.[/quote
You have had a lot of good news recently :)
Unknown means unknown.

Steve3007
Posts: 5627
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Eratosthenes
Location: UK

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 » November 27th, 2018, 8:47 am

Another funny thing: The live TV debate between Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn, just before the vote in Parliament, is going to be on the same night as the series final of "I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out Of Here!".

There's got to be some good material for satirists there.

User avatar
barata
New Trial Member
Posts: 17
Joined: November 9th, 2018, 1:10 pm

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by barata » December 6th, 2018, 11:33 pm

To come back to my starting point "We are better off outside the EU because big is not beautiful and the EU is too big" in a group of 10 people doing a job, say ploughing a field by hand, anyone who slacks off gets brought into line and made to do their fair share and anyone who is less capable is only expected to do what they can. Ideally that's how society works, but the bigger the group the easier it is for some to dodge their fair share of work [or fiddle themselves a greater share of the rewards] and since those dodging/fiddling are probably ones we don't know it becomes easy to stigmatise them as some sort of inherently inferior sub-group. The control of the dodgers/fiddlers requires ever more draconian rules that make life for the majority worse than it needs to be.

Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 1582
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Belindi » December 7th, 2018, 8:50 am

barata wrote:
December 6th, 2018, 11:33 pm
To come back to my starting point "We are better off outside the EU because big is not beautiful and the EU is too big" in a group of 10 people doing a job, say ploughing a field by hand, anyone who slacks off gets brought into line and made to do their fair share and anyone who is less capable is only expected to do what they can. Ideally that's how society works, but the bigger the group the easier it is for some to dodge their fair share of work [or fiddle themselves a greater share of the rewards] and since those dodging/fiddling are probably ones we don't know it becomes easy to stigmatise them as some sort of inherently inferior sub-group. The control of the dodgers/fiddlers requires ever more draconian rules that make life for the majority worse than it needs to be.
But when old time farmers in medieval England ploughed a field they cooperated in the use of plough and oxen. Each individual farmer had narrow strips of land to plough and together the group of farmers ploughed efficiently because, compared with isolated individual,they were a large enough and cooperative group.

It's true that ,as you say, larger groups need more control by law or by social superiors, or by traditions that are often supported by religion. What is your calculation that finds for you that life is better when individuals don't cooperate so much? It's hardly sufficient to assert that the work of making and enforcing rules is such as to negate the benefits of cooperative work.

User avatar
Mark1955
Posts: 501
Joined: July 21st, 2015, 4:02 am
Favorite Philosopher: David Hume
Location: Nottingham, England.

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Mark1955 » Yesterday, 12:41 pm

Belindi wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 8:50 am
It's true that ,as you say, larger groups need more control by law or by social superiors, or by traditions that are often supported by religion. What is your calculation that finds for you that life is better when individuals don't cooperate so much? It's hardly sufficient to assert that the work of making and enforcing rules is such as to negate the benefits of cooperative work.
I'd suggest that the benefit of communal work starts to be negated when the ordering person doesn't actually know what the worker is doing. The moment you reach that point 'the rule is the rule' and it may be doing your work harm, but since the rule maker doesn't know this he can't do anything about it. It is now accepted in industry that feedback from the shopfloor is a significant part of efficient operation. Suprastate bodies, even national bodies rarely have such mechanisms and the chances of them working effectively are poor even if they exist, simply because different parts of the system will work best in different ways.
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.

Eduk
Posts: 2251
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Eduk » Yesterday, 1:04 pm

Does the correct size of government exactly match each countries current and future borders irrespective of population or total land mass? Seems like a coincidence too good to be true.
Unknown means unknown.

Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 1582
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Belindi » Yesterday, 2:57 pm

Mark1955 wrote:
Yesterday, 12:41 pm
Belindi wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 8:50 am
It's true that ,as you say, larger groups need more control by law or by social superiors, or by traditions that are often supported by religion. What is your calculation that finds for you that life is better when individuals don't cooperate so much? It's hardly sufficient to assert that the work of making and enforcing rules is such as to negate the benefits of cooperative work.
I'd suggest that the benefit of communal work starts to be negated when the ordering person doesn't actually know what the worker is doing. The moment you reach that point 'the rule is the rule' and it may be doing your work harm, but since the rule maker doesn't know this he can't do anything about it. It is now accepted in industry that feedback from the shopfloor is a significant part of efficient operation. Suprastate bodies, even national bodies rarely have such mechanisms and the chances of them working effectively are poor even if they exist, simply because different parts of the system will work best in different ways.
It's been suggested (sorry I cannot give a reference to it but it's in Guardian today maybe yesterday I think) that David Cameron should have discovered that popular feelings about personal identity are much more significant to voting patterns than are party allegiances.Would you say that local identities such as Geordie, Borders, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, or West Country are more important to individuals than British, Labour, or Conservative?

Post Reply