Happy New Year! The January Philosophy Book of the Month is The Runaway Species. Discuss it now.

The February Philosophy Book of the Month is The Fourth Age by Byron Reese (Nominated by RJG.)

Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Frost
Posts: 510
Joined: January 20th, 2018, 2:44 pm

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

The equations of fundamental physics are time-symmetric, so an essential question is, what breaks that symmetry? In the von Neumann Interpretation of the orthodox quantum formalism, von Neumann suggested that it is the non-physical experiential state of living organisms which actualize a particular quantum state, breaking the time symmetry. In this way, time is emergent as a result of experiential states, but certainly not an Intentionality-dependent phenomena (i.e., not idealism).

Namelesss
Posts: 499
Joined: November 15th, 2017, 1:59 am

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

January 9th, 2018, 2:11 pm
Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but you are implying that time does not exist due to its measurement being "0", however a Plank second is not 0. A plank second has a physical unit of measurement equal to 5.39 × 10 −44 s, you cannot just average this down to zero because that is not it's definition.

I am not attempting to refute your whole argument here because I think there are some aspects of it that are interesting and deserve discourse, but I want clarification on whether you are implying time is 0 or not.
although is see an 'actual' temporal element in the mathematical representation of the Planck moment, it is, ultimately, of no duration to have duration.
It is as 'zero' as .9999... = 1! *__-
More so! (I don't have to ignore the pesky tangent to explain it)
The timeless Planck moment is not a measure of temporal extent, but a single unit of perception, a 'percept', the experience/Knowledge of the Here! Now!

Namelesss
Posts: 499
Joined: November 15th, 2017, 1:59 am

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Sorry I didn't answer sooner, but as it was not quoted, or have my non-name, I just stumbled on it it now.

tommarcus
Posts: 95
Joined: July 25th, 2018, 10:54 am

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Time is a measurement and does not exist as a force or physical entity itself. It is no different than the measurement of velocity.

How is the measure of time made? It is made by the movement of two or more physical objects relative to each other. Whether the moving atoms in an atomic clock, the vibrating molecules in a crystal, the spring in a watch or the pendulum of a clock, it is about relative motion. Without physical movement, there is no time. Similarly, without motion of a physical object, velocity doesn't exist.

So prior to the existence if the physical universe, there was no time since there was nothing physical that could move. Contrary to popular belief, time is not another dimension. It is firmly a part of the three dimensions of the universe. And therefore any other dimensions are not subject to it.

Wayne92587
Posts: 1772
Joined: January 27th, 2012, 9:32 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Hermese Trismegistus

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

The Arrow of Time and motionless Time, the Zero-0 Hour both exist.

The only Time that exists is the Here and Now, the Zero-0 Hour.
Time exists, the existence or non-existence of Time is not Uncertain, is certain, because a object in Space is measurable location and momentum in Time and in Space.

Existence requires that Time Space and Motion, to be relative.

Nothingness, None existence requires Time Space and Motion, to not be relative,
to not exist.

Prior to the beginning of the Creative Process, simply because the relativity of Time Space and Motion did not exist, because the Reality of Everything, Time, Space and Motion, existed as an Infinitely Finite Indivisible Singularity having no relative, no numerical value, having a numerical value of Zero-0.

Zero-0, nothing existing as an omnipresent Infinitely Finite Indivisible Singularity, within a State of Nothingness, of Singularity.

Motion in Time beginning at the Zero-0 Hour.

Motion in Space beginning at Point Zero-0.

Motion in the beginning itself at a Standstill, all Singularities being Motionless, having no relative, numerical value having a numerical value of Zero-0.

The Singularity of Motion existing as the insignificant innate, inner motion of a Singularity alone in the Emptiness of Time and Space.

This inner, innate motion, not being measurable, being meaningless, having no measurable angular momentum, velocity of Speed and direction, existed as a Vibration, and oscillation at the heart of, existed as the Inner Passion of a Singularity alone in the Emptiness, as the Everlasting, Eternal source of Pure Unadulterated Heat Energy

Thinking critical
Posts: 1793
Joined: November 7th, 2011, 7:29 pm
Favorite Philosopher: A.C Grayling
Location: Perth, Australia (originally New Zealand)

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Time can be understood as a concept (the measurement of change) while simultaneously existing as a dimension of a physical reality, without the dimension of time the Universe would be static an unchanging.
The arrow of time is evident in the fact that things which explode don't naturally fall back together into their original form again and at a temporal dimension we can't remember the future.
This cocky little cognitive contortionist will straighten you right out

Wayne92587
Posts: 1772
Joined: January 27th, 2012, 9:32 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Hermese Trismegistus

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Time, the “Reality” of Time in Space exists only as the Reality of the Moment, the Here and Now, as a Singularity of Zero-0, at the Zero- Hour.

The motion, the angular momentum, the velocity of Speed and direction, the motion of the Arrow of Time having angular momentum, velocity of speed and direction, is used as a coordinated measurement of The relativity of Time and Space of an object as it moves as a, series, as a sequential number of point Singularities in Space-Time which began at the Zero-0 Hour, the Event Horizion..

The Arrow, the motion, the direction of differentiated Time once begun is continuous, Everlasting Eternal, is Infinite Time.

Time, differentiated Time exists as a series of moments that exist as a series of point singularity, the measurable location and momentum of an object as its motion takes it from here to there in Space-Time.

Time being a continuous point at which Time and Space are relative, thus allowing measurability of the location and Momentum of existence of Time in Space-Time.

Time, differentiated Time, is measurable as the Arrow of Time, the motion of an object as it passes through the point in which its location and momentum of an object as it travels about Space Time from one location to another

Differentiated Time as a series of moments, points that are relative as to location and momentum of a Point in which Time and Space are relative represent the arrow of Time is a measurement, series of coordinated movement as to Location and momentum of object as it travels about Space-Time.

ThomasHobbes
Posts: 1122
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Time is - whether you like it or not a concept to describe how the universe works, dripping with experiential metaphor it can never directly represent that which it hopes to describe forever missing the point. This is true of all descriptors of reality.

Wayne92587
Posts: 1772
Joined: January 27th, 2012, 9:32 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Hermese Trismegistus

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

I am just trying to point out that in order to speak of Time, it must be known if you are speaking of moment which time exists, the Reality of the moment the here and now, which may or may not only exist as a Planck moment in Time.

The Planck moment is Time is closer to non existence than it is to existence.

A Planck Time is necessary for existence however the measurement of Time is necessary for Living.

Wayne92587
Posts: 1772
Joined: January 27th, 2012, 9:32 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Hermese Trismegistus

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Time, Space and motion were not involved in the Transition of nothing into something.

Time, Space, Motion remained unchanged, remained undifferentiated, each remaining a Singularity having no relative, numerical value, remained a Singularity of Zero-0 until after the beginning moment that the Creative Process began.

Time, Space, and Motion were not relativity until after the beginning moment that the Creative Process began, until after the moment of Creation.

Wayne92587
Posts: 1772
Joined: January 27th, 2012, 9:32 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Hermese Trismegistus

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Time did not pass by as a Singularity of Zero-0 was converted into a Singularity of one-1, not even a Planck moment in Time.

It looks as though Creation was like the Flip of a Coin.

ThomasHobbes
Posts: 1122
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Time is just one **** thing after another.
You experience that at different rates through your life.
You can speed it up if you go fast.
That really sums it all up.
You can only really describe the universe, there is nothing to explain.

SimpleGuy
Posts: 338
Joined: September 11th, 2017, 12:28 pm

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

There are different definitions of time the time arrow comes from thermodynamics, where we state that $\frac{\delta Q}{T}$ has something to do with the irreversality of a thermodynamic process and this leads to the definition of an ordering function S whose differential can be described via
dU = T dS -pdV where U is the inner enery V is the volume of the material , p is the pressure and T the Temperature. The setting has as a concequence that for all closed systems the state (U,S,V,N) has to increase the entropy at the end. The statistical definition has to be consistent with this definition
($S = -K_B \sum_i p_i ln(p_i)$) . This is a statistical and thermodynamical definition of time direction the time for a \underline{single} particle cannot be definied via statistics (due to the fact that statistics is based of the underlying physical framework, whatever this framework is like classcal mechanics, quantum mechacics, or special/general relativity).

SimpleGuy
Posts: 338
Joined: September 11th, 2017, 12:28 pm

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

By the way if this doesn't suffice i refer to the hitchhikers guide though the galaxy this explains everything.

tommarcus
Posts: 95
Joined: July 25th, 2018, 10:54 am

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Time is nothing more than a measurement.

Time only exists when two physical objects move relative to each other. Whether it is the atoms in an atomic clock, the pendulum of a clock or the vibration of crystals there is no such "thing" as time. Just like you can't have velocity without motion the movement of something physical. If there is an existence or dimension that has no physical objects within it, then there can be no time.

In the Theory of Relativity time is just another variable. Prior to Einstein, time was considered as a constant. By treating time as a variable, Einstein was able to develop his theory and make predictions which would have been inconsistent with a constant arrow of time. Popular discourse likes to treat time as if it is another dimension. Without the physical world, it doesn't exist, so it is not another dimension.

So what us going on? We kno whine thing for sure and that us nothing in our physical dimensions can travel faster than the speed of light. So as you approach the speed of light, something must change. That thing which we measure is time. But it is not time itself which is changing but the physical objects which we use to measure time. As they approach the speed of light, they can't surpass it, therefore their relative motion to each other is slowed down. That is, it appears that time itself as an object is slowed down.