Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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devans99
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by devans99 » September 16th, 2018, 11:59 am

As far as we know, time is change’ - I think there is a view that time is a fundamental part of the fabric of the universe. I tend to buy this view for example the speed of light is so fundamental to how the universe works and it is a constant defined as distance / time. In fact some form of speed limit is essential for any self-consistent universe else velocities tend to infinity and objects can instantaneously exit the universe. The physical speed limit law exists independently of any change, orbits etc... physical laws do not pop in and out of existence, so time is more fundamental than you allow for I think.

The actual start of the universe must logically be at the same time or after the start of time so your conception of local time relating to virtual particles popping into existence does not make metaphysical sense to me.

I sense you are a believer that quantum fluctuations caused the creation of the universe? I find these theories hard to believe. The quantum fluctuations in question must take place in a timeless environment and there must be a finite number of total quantum fluctuations. Denied the power of infinity (all that can happen will happen), I fail to see how they could be responsible for the creation of a complex and fundamental physical concept like Time.

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SimpleGuy
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by SimpleGuy » September 16th, 2018, 1:55 pm

As i told you that according to the general relativity the beginning time could differ from the point of the manifold where you look at it. Even eternal as timedistance could depend on the viewpoint of somebody which was already mentioned by me (people looking at somebody falling into a black hole
could watch forever , person itself doesnt fall for ever). Due to different geodesics on the manifold the beginning of time could be different according to the point where you want to observe this beginning. If a black hole could split into two black holes (which is just a hypothesis) the beginning couldn't get even defined for the big bang.

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Thinking critical
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Thinking critical » September 17th, 2018, 5:26 am

devans99 wrote:
September 15th, 2018, 7:21 pm
I was thinking about this recently too:

- Something can’t come from nothing
According to who and why? And what does that statement even really mean.
How do we even quantify something(s) and nothing(s) when we are limited to what we know?
- So base reality must have always existed
What is base reality and whose reality is it?
- If base reality is permanent it must be timeless (proof: assume base reality existed forever within time - the total number of particle collisions would be infinite - reductio ad absurdum)
If we don't know what this base reality is, in reality it therefore doesn't exist.....it's nothing.
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devans99
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by devans99 » September 17th, 2018, 11:28 am

I’ll define nothing as the complete absence of reality: no matter, energy or spacial dimensions. Absolute nothing not even void fluctuations because there is no void. It’s clear then that nothing can come from such as state. Therefore we have to assume something (which I call base reality) existed always.

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Thinking critical
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Thinking critical » September 18th, 2018, 5:29 am

devans99 wrote:
September 17th, 2018, 11:28 am
I’ll define nothing as the complete absence of reality: no matter, energy or spacial dimensions. Absolute nothing not even void fluctuations because there is no void. It’s clear then that nothing can come from such as state. Therefore we have to assume something (which I call base reality) existed always.
Your idea of base reality lacks any explanatory value, we might as well say a potential Universe necessarily existed in a state of zero until this Universe emerged.
The problem I see with an eternal foundation is the logical paradox it creates, if such a state existed for an infinite period of time it must necessarily always exist, so a universe such as this one could consequently never exist.
This cocky little cognitive contortionist will straighten you right out

devans99
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by devans99 » September 18th, 2018, 6:07 am

Thinking critical wrote:
September 18th, 2018, 5:29 am
Your idea of base reality lacks any explanatory value, we might as well say a potential Universe necessarily existed in a state of zero until this Universe emerged.
Yes but ‘from nothing comes nothing’. If base reality existed first in a zero state then there is no way for a non-zero base reality to get started.

What I’m proposing is not an eternal foundation but a timeless foundation. So base reality exists and exists permanently outside of time. Then it follows that base reality exists permanently without the need for any infinites. It’s the 4D finite block universe view from Relativity.

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Thinking critical
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Thinking critical » September 18th, 2018, 6:58 am

devans99 wrote:
September 18th, 2018, 6:07 am
Thinking critical wrote:
September 18th, 2018, 5:29 am
Your idea of base reality lacks any explanatory value, we might as well say a potential Universe necessarily existed in a state of zero until this Universe emerged.
Yes but ‘from nothing comes nothing’. If base reality existed first in a zero state then there is no way for a non-zero base reality to get started.

What I’m proposing is not an eternal foundation but a timeless foundation. So base reality exists and exists permanently outside of time. Then it follows that base reality exists permanently without the need for any infinites. It’s the 4D finite block universe view from Relativity.
85% of our Universe is filled with nothing, we call this nothingness dark matter and dark energy because we don't know what else to call it and we don't know what is.
The point is until we can successfully understand, identify and quantify the existence of all forms of particles, attempting to describe the nature of the conditions which may or may have not preceded the Universe is meaningless. There currently exist a limit to our knowledge of cosmology an particle physics, once science has paved the way, maybe then philosophy can offer some useful insight.
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devans99
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by devans99 » September 18th, 2018, 7:48 am

You seem to be saying that metaphysics has no useful role to play in the advancement of human knowledge without physics first leading the way. I disagree. Review my original argument:

“- Something can’t come from nothing
- So base reality must have always existed
- If base reality is permanent it must be timeless (proof: assume base reality existed forever within time - the total number of particle collisions would be infinite - reductio ad absurdum)
- So base reality must be timeless (to avoid the infinities) and permanent
- Time was created and exists within this permanent, timeless, base reality
- So time must be real, permanent and finite”

It’s an argument from no axioms (the best sort). It’s a sequence of plausible logical steps. It concludes with useful deductions about the universe. Why do you argue that metaphysics is useless when we can construct reasonable models of the universe metaphysically?

Another example, you say our universe 85% dark energy. Science tells use dark energy is intrinsic to empty space but not much else. We can make metaphysical deductions from that without waiting for physics to catch up: Energy is equivalent to matter. So in order to avoid an actually infinite amount of matter in the universe, space must be finite. Metaphysics is useful!

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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Eduk » September 18th, 2018, 11:00 am

It’s an argument from no axioms (the best sort). It’s a sequence of plausible logical steps. It concludes with useful deductions about the universe.
Is there any chance that all three of the above statements are false?

By the way I don't disagree that meta-physics is potentially useful.
Unknown means unknown.

devans99
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by devans99 » September 18th, 2018, 11:05 am

Rather than just saying I’m wrong, please kindly say why I’m wrong. Else it’s kind of hard to have a discussion.

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Greta
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Greta » September 18th, 2018, 5:49 pm

devans99 wrote:
September 18th, 2018, 7:48 am
- So base reality must be timeless (to avoid the infinities) and permanent
- Time was created and exists within this permanent, timeless, base reality
- So time must be real, permanent and finite”
Why must that which exists within something else share all of its qualities?

I do like the idea of realms within realms, but the qualities between the containing and emergent realms are only somewhat common.

So humans emerged from a larger pool of mammals,
which emerged from a larger group of chordates,
which emerged from a larger group of animals,
which emerged from within a relative ocean of plant life,
which grew from a much larger pool of microbial live,
which emerged from the Earth's vast geology,
which formed from within the solar system,
which formed from within the galaxy,
which emerged from the universe, (perhaps some more layers here, maybe the actions of galactic megaclusters)
which emerged from the quantum foam,
which emerged from ...?

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by ThomasHobbes » September 18th, 2018, 6:31 pm

Thinking critical wrote:
April 16th, 2018, 7:09 am
1) Our Universe has a beginning, it can be traced back to roughly less than 1 to 10th of a second from its origins.

2)Spacetime is intrinsic to the Universe, there is no before the beginning or we couldn't call it the beginning.
1) Speculation upon theory upon guesswork with NO empirical evidence possible.

2) Just a human construct by which we attempt to describe it.

devans99
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by devans99 » September 19th, 2018, 5:51 am

Greta wrote:
September 18th, 2018, 5:49 pm
Why must that which exists within something else share all of its qualities?
Humans emerged from quantum foam you say, so I would conclude humans inherit all of the qualities of quantum foam in some form (maybe many aspects are disguised though Schrödinger’s cats are not observed in nature).

A possible counter argument is the simulation hypothesis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis).

But even with the simulation hypothesis, my argument above is argued from base reality so still stands.

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Thinking critical
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Thinking critical » September 19th, 2018, 6:13 am

ThomasHobbes wrote:
September 18th, 2018, 6:31 pm
Thinking critical wrote:
April 16th, 2018, 7:09 am
1) Our Universe has a beginning, it can be traced back to roughly less than 1 to 10th of a second from its origins.

2)Spacetime is intrinsic to the Universe, there is no before the beginning or we couldn't call it the beginning.
1) Speculation upon theory upon guesswork with NO empirical evidence possible.
Quatum mechanics to this day has been demonstrated to make highly accurate predictions which far out way any other scientific framework we know of. There is no valid reason to suspect that the plank epoch is not an accurate model of the early Universe, furthermore cosmologists have made precise measurements of the CMB which are consistent with predictions of the plank model e.g spectral radiance.
2) Just a human construct by which we attempt to describe it.
All descriptions of things are Human constructs, how else can we describe reality?
This cocky little cognitive contortionist will straighten you right out

Eduk
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Eduk » September 19th, 2018, 6:25 am

Devans I didn't say you were wrong. I asked if there was a chance you were wrong. Those are different things.
Unknown means unknown.

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