Non-Duality is terrifying

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Atla
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Atla » January 19th, 2019, 5:51 pm

Wayne92587 wrote:
September 9th, 2018, 1:10 pm
I could not read past the first Page.

As I see it, because language is based on metaphors, language is an abomination.

You can not, it is irreverent to, speak of, give a name to God or any other hidden, secret,
Sacred, Entity.

The existence or non-existence of anything that is not readily apparent, is not measurable as to location and momentum in Space-Time, is a lie, is at best “Uncertain”.

In Quantum Theory that Reality itself is generated by the mind, is not born of experience, that man must look upon, see a Reality before it can exist.

For the Quantum Theorist, because he or she has no Knowledge of what existed before the so called Big Bang that Universe has no beginning; have been forced to modify that theory.

The theoretical scientist now believes that the Heaven and the Earth, the Universe, the Reality of Everything is born of Nothingness.

This works for the Religious Theorist because he and she believe that Heavens and the Earth, that the Universe, that the Reality of Everything was born of the Mind of God, that not only the Mind of God but also the Mind of Man has no material, physical, existence.

Duality for Descartes was the Duality of Mind and Body, however not only Body but also Mind was theorized to physical, a immateriality,

Man without a doubt has a dual quality, Mind and Body, Spirit and Flesh, however Mankind is not a Duality.

It is said in the Bible that the two are to become One

It is said in Tao te Ching that if the two become One that man will enter the gateway to the Stars,

Hermes Trismegistus was Three Times Great.

From the Emerald Tablet.

Who it is without false hood certain and most true, that that which is above is like to that which is below and that that which is below is like to that which is above to accomplish the miracles of wondering.

In order for the so called Jesus Christ to become the Savior of Mankind he had to die in the Flesh in order for the Spirit to rise up to the Heavens, the Spirit then to return to the Body so as to allow the Savior of Mankind to walk the Earth, with the Physical and Spiritual Bodies acting as the whole of a Single Reality.

The Two as One being Three Times Great, the One being greater than the sum total of the two as individual Singularities.

Man’s downfall began with the death of his and her conscious mind, the separation of mind and body, Eve eating of the Tree o Knowledge good and evil,

In order for man’s Salvation to take place the Mind and Body must walk the Earth as the Whole of a Single Reality.
Nope, nondualism is fully dismissing the batshit crazy idea of there being a mind and a body. You are trying to unify them, which is why you are still caught up in dualism.

Atla
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Atla » January 19th, 2019, 5:55 pm

gheinz wrote:
August 16th, 2018, 5:42 am
(I am writing for the first time in an English speaking discussion forum, I hope my style is not too strange.)
Originally, I wanted to open my own thread for my thoughts here (I will do so afterwards). I have already posted in a Austrian Philosophy Forum. My wish is that my idea can spread as quickly as possible.


Now that I see someone very suffering from doubts.
I seem to be on the brink of death speaking about these troubling thoughts. For now, everything seems bearable. But I don't know where I will end up if this destroys me. Any thoughts to this?
Therefore, I will answer here first. Yes, I also had a "mystical" (from the perspective of a doubter), non-dual experience that was exceedingly clear and most pleasing.
Because non-duality is experienced, it is not known by a rational explanation.
 For a long time afterwards, I came up with the idea of ​​turning my personal experience into a generally valid (based on logic), simple thought experiment, which I believe I have succeeded in doing. I am confident that this will free you from your doubts once and for all.

The starting point for these considerations is the term "selfishness". Selfishness seems indispensable; without them, I would not even care if I'm alive or dead! The effect of selfishness consists in the delimitation; certain boundaries become meaningful to me.

Conversely, there are no meaningful boundaries without selfishness. In the state of absence of selfishness, unlimitedness is experienced.

This is already the end result of this really very simple thought experiment! All that remains is to present three examples of unlimitedness that I have experienced:

1. The limitations of my body are meaningless. My body is meaningless; the condition of my body is meaningless. In the state of selflessness, physical death has no meaning.

2. The boundary between subject and object is meaningless. The inner realm of my thoughts and the outer reality are a unity. Everything that exists is my thoughts; everything that exists is created by my thoughts.

3. My ability to change the status quo is unlimited. My personal power is bound to no limit. But since I have no doubt I do not have to check this. In the state of selflessness, I have nothing to be desired and therefore will not use my power.

Of course, there is much more to be said. But I hope that is enough to help. Maybe I will add something more here or elsewhere.
You seem to have lost it, there are no actual boundaries but that doesn't mean that the thoughts in your head have suddenly acquired unlimited magical power.

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cavacava
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by cavacava » January 20th, 2019, 9:17 am

#Tosen
My biggest fear is knowing that everything I have experienced up until now has been an illusion. A product of the mind's intrinsic tendency to dualism. Everything seems false, nothing is real. Truth is just one. Up until now my philosophical "truths"(Or any thought of that matter) have been dualistic. So, I reach some sort of existential crisis or nihilistic crisis in nature. Not only that, but all of my dreams, hopes, my personal realizations are far from truth. Any meaning becomes meaningless. It is not worth living for something at it is just a concept, a construct of the mind that separates me and true reality. In a crude way, it is all fake. I can't even think without separation so it troubles me more.
Plato in his Cave example talks about the fate of people who can only see shadows on the wall, and not what makes those shadows. And, the Western tradition up till Kant treated representation in this manner. Kant upturned the notion that we can know things as they are, the problem is that what is must be thought, and there is no guarantee that what we think corresponds to what we perceive.

However, those so called shadows are all immediately available to us and since we cannot be mistaken in our perception of what we are seeing, smelling, touching, hearing or tasting even if it is a simulacrum, a delusion or whatever, we cannot be wrong that this is what we are experiencing.

And, in fact that's how science proceeds. It observes, and based on numerous observations it abstracts laws that attempt to account for what is perceived. The reality of the abstraction is secondary to the primary reality, which is the simulacrum.

What is empirically known is known inductively, and induction can not guarantee true knowledge, it can however provide a a very good approximation. Validity in this practical/empiric sense has greater force than abstract truth, it means we have concluded certain things about the world which we can assert with high or lower probabilities.

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Joshie
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Joshie » March 17th, 2020, 5:22 pm

Tosen wrote:
May 6th, 2018, 10:35 pm
Duality is the greatest enemy to non-duality (Obviously). But get this, in order to reach non-duality you MUST purge the duality of the mind...
I don't agree. The sense of duality we experience, the sense of being separate, self-determining entities, the sense of being "skin-encapsulated egos" (Alan Watts) isn't something we need to purge. It's just the default way that mind construes reality. When we see beyond that illusion, the illusion doesn't cease. In fact, we still embrace it readily enough, though with the sense that we're just playing a game. We can see the illusion for what it is.

When you talk about the "terror" of non-duality, you're coming from the ego-illusion. And from that perspective, it can indeed be terrifying, because as you start to know your higher being, everything you held dear as an imaginary ego is stripped of meaning. So, there's this transitional period of utter hopelessness, when you realise that everything you ever believed was true, isn't true, and everything you ever believed yourself to be, you are not that. It's a normal phase of awakening.

Delight yourself in the mind-f#ck of paradox. There's no need to throw out the baby with the bath water. I am this seemingly separate entity. And yet I am not. Both statements are true. Neils Bohr put it so well: “The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.”

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Present awareness
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Present awareness » March 18th, 2020, 12:52 am

Atla wrote:
May 25th, 2018, 1:22 am
chaos_mora wrote:
May 24th, 2018, 4:44 pm
Just a thought: I don't think you can meaningfully call your life an "illusion." I mean, even if it were a simulation, dream, or such, it's still "real." My point here is based on my perspective that "reality" is an epistemological judgement that can only be established by consciousness. As such (along the lines of the cogito) you can never really doubt that what you are seeing is "real." I don't know if this is at all related to the question, but I think it's worth mentioning.
Good point. The world/existence/reality (I use the world "reality" as in: all that there actually is), is of course real, but we normally experience it in a quite illusory/misleading way. Nondualism is about seeing through this illusory stuff. "Pulling aside the veil" as some would say.

But it's easy to misunderstand this, and fall into some sort of derealization/depersonalization. For example nowadays we have some pseudo-Advaitans running around who believe that everything is literally an illusion, and there's nothing actually there. They are convinced that they don't exist either in any way, aside maybe from some general sensation of blissful awareness.

Similarly, some Buddhists misunderstand their emptiness-approach and go too far with it. They start to believe that the true nature of reality is literally a total void, from which things temporarily seem to jump into being. Some Buddhists also try to completely dismantle the individual self and ego, one of the worst ideas people have come up with imo.

Such people can say with perfect confidence that they are not there and nothing exists. Telling them that the ego may be in some ways illusory, but there is still a human speaking (and that human always has some personality / individual self left), and the world is still there, seems to have no effect: it's met with a blind stare on their part. Unfortunately such people also seem to be making the most noise, many of them go around aggressively telling everyone that no one is there and nothing exists; giving Eastern nondualism a bad name.
I am reminded if a zen story where a monk is talking to a zen master and the monk exclaims “everything is an illusion and nothing exists” the master then hit him on the head with his cane, which made the monk very angry. “If nothing exists” said the master “then where does this anger come from?”
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.

Atla
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Atla » March 20th, 2020, 12:46 am

Present awareness wrote:
March 18th, 2020, 12:52 am
I am reminded if a zen story where a monk is talking to a zen master and the monk exclaims “everything is an illusion and nothing exists” the master then hit him on the head with his cane, which made the monk very angry. “If nothing exists” said the master “then where does this anger come from?”
One can also annoy the hell out of these fake nondualists by making them really angry, and then acting like their anger didn't exist (since they claim not to be there). :)

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Mosesquine
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Mosesquine » March 24th, 2020, 12:16 pm

I am interested in the topic, due to the title of the OP above, but honestly speaking, the concept 'non-duality' is too seriously, ambiguous to participate in the discussion... What is 'non-duality', or what do you intend to discuss by 'non-duality'??? The whole illustration of the OP is very ambiguously offered above, I think. It seems that the writer of the OP has tried to talk about traditional 'dualism' like 'the mind-body dualism' in philosophy of mind, or like such and such distinctions already discussed in philosophy, i.e. the analytic-synthetic distinction, or sense-reference distinction, etc... However, still the keyword, very key vocabulary, 'duality' is extremely ambiguous, which means that the keyword, 'duality' can be interpreted in too diverse, various, many many different ways, like I said above, 'mind-body dualism', 'such and such distinctions in other areas in philosophy'.
This is problem because we can only participate in the discussion when only we can define the term importantly used in the center of the discussion. We cannot efficiently talk about things when we cannot clearly define the keywords in the things we want to talk about.

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Mosesquine
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Mosesquine » March 24th, 2020, 12:23 pm

It seems to me that 'non-duality', and 'duality' used in the OP and the whole threads following the Op are all ambiguous. The concept 'non-duality' is too ambiguous to understand, like the concept 'duality' is so. 'Non-duality' would be interpreted as such a thought like 'holism', or 'monism', but the writer of the OP intentionally uses 'non-duality' instead of previously familiar word like 'holism', and 'monism'. This seems to me that there is a particular reason that the writer of the OP chose the term, particular term 'non-duality'. However, I think that the particular reason that the writer of the OP chose the particular vocabulary, 'non-duality', instead of 'holism', or 'monism', is not clear. The whole keywords and the contents are all ambiguous, and very blurry... Sorry, I can't follow the discussion though I am interested in the topic...

Atla
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Atla » March 24th, 2020, 5:38 pm

Mosesquine wrote:
March 24th, 2020, 12:23 pm
It seems to me that 'non-duality', and 'duality' used in the OP and the whole threads following the Op are all ambiguous. The concept 'non-duality' is too ambiguous to understand, like the concept 'duality' is so. 'Non-duality' would be interpreted as such a thought like 'holism', or 'monism', but the writer of the OP intentionally uses 'non-duality' instead of previously familiar word like 'holism', and 'monism'. This seems to me that there is a particular reason that the writer of the OP chose the term, particular term 'non-duality'. However, I think that the particular reason that the writer of the OP chose the particular vocabulary, 'non-duality', instead of 'holism', or 'monism', is not clear. The whole keywords and the contents are all ambiguous, and very blurry... Sorry, I can't follow the discussion though I am interested in the topic...
I'm not exactly sure what the OP meant, but imo it's impossible to explain nondualism in a few sentences. I always try and always fail. Usually takes months or years until one starts to get a good grip of it (if at all).

Nondualism is the other philosophical metaparadigm (the correct one). It's little known, but there are two philosophical metaparadigms on this planet, dualistic and nondual. All of Western philosophy is dualistic.

Nondualism is perhaps mainly about thinking without reifying cognitive divisions. Take Western monism for example, which is dualistic from a nondual perspective. By saying that everything is of one kind, we have reified a cognitive division, 'one' is countable just as two or many are countable. It's a thought with an outline, projected onto reality, giving reality a border and thus dividing, making reality into a 'thing'.

So nondualism is not-two, but also not-one. (But from a Western perspective, we could sort of say that nondualism is the final form of monism, it's what lies beyond monism.)

The above was just an example. When the reified divisions get dismantled, we can realize our true nature, they usually call it awakening. It's not necessarily a good thing for the person, but usually worth it for people who are curious about existence.

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Bluemist
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Bluemist » March 26th, 2020, 3:14 pm

Why does non-dualism exclude higher degrees of pluralism than two? Is it only because we are not smart enough to think in even more complex ways?
Does the one of monism have parts, and if so, are the parts complete and do the parts overlap? If the one has no parts then what good is it?
If you don't believe in telekinesis then raise your right hand :wink:

Atla
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Atla » March 26th, 2020, 4:14 pm

Bluemist wrote:
March 26th, 2020, 3:14 pm
Why does non-dualism exclude higher degrees of pluralism than two? Is it only because we are not smart enough to think in even more complex ways?
Does the one of monism have parts, and if so, are the parts complete and do the parts overlap? If the one has no parts then what good is it?
Complexity isn't the issue. For example 'trialism' is even worse than 'dualism' because now we divide the indivisible existence into three irreconcilable somethings, and then try to reconcile them.

I don't understand the parts question. I guess that depends on what kind of monism you want. There are no parts in nondualism though, the idea of parts is just an everyday convention that is necessary for humans.

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Bluemist
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Bluemist » March 26th, 2020, 6:42 pm

I'm not suggesting that we can answer these questions. I'm bringing them up because they have remained without satisfactory answers in the historical literature.

Dualism goes back in origin to ancient use of binary logic to invent the logical refutation of false statements. This sort of thing can only be done if the subject of the argument is a discrete object of some sort, so it meets the requirements of identity. It was strictly for this practical purpose that dualism was introduced, and it was an enormous improvement over having no rational philosophy at all. In reality there is no basis for insisting that the world is also this way. We have to pretend that it is to make progress.

Anything higher than dualism makes very little sense without the logic to support it. But science doesn't do either. Scientific logic is calculus of a continuous world and simplified statistical logic for partitions of that world.

One complicating factor is language and thought. We can't think logically in anything more complicated than binary logic. To make that happen, we reduce the world to imagined dualities for the sake of saying anything logical. In reality, this may be practical but is a poor approximation to the world we live in.
If you don't believe in telekinesis then raise your right hand :wink:

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