Ontology precedes ethics.

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Ontology precedes ethics.

Post by ReasonMadeFlesh » June 6th, 2018, 11:50 am

Mystics say that all is one.

What they mean is that if you understand the nature of existence then you will also solve the problems of ethics and epistemology.

Why questions should be abandoned IMO.

There are only WHAT questions, and when you can see clearly, all the why questions disappear.
"A philosopher who does not take part in discussions is like a boxer who never goes into the ring." - Ludwig Wittgenstein

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Re: Ontology precedes ethics.

Post by Thinking critical » June 6th, 2018, 4:09 pm

ReasonMadeFlesh wrote:
June 6th, 2018, 11:50 am
Mystics say that all is one.

What they mean is that if you understand the nature of existence then you will also solve the problems of ethics and epistemology.

Why questions should be abandoned IMO.

There are only WHAT questions, and when you can see clearly, all the why questions disappear.
What does understanding the nature of existence mean? What is the correlation between ethics and epistemology?
This cocky little cognitive contortionist will straighten you right out

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Re: Ontology precedes ethics.

Post by ThomasHobbes » June 6th, 2018, 6:56 pm

Thinking critical wrote:
June 6th, 2018, 4:09 pm
ReasonMadeFlesh wrote:
June 6th, 2018, 11:50 am
Mystics say that all is one.

What they mean is that if you understand the nature of existence then you will also solve the problems of ethics and epistemology.

Why questions should be abandoned IMO.

There are only WHAT questions, and when you can see clearly, all the why questions disappear.
What does understanding the nature of existence mean? What is the correlation between ethics and epistemology?
Nature of existence; existence of nature. Anything more than a tautology?

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Re: Ontology precedes ethics.

Post by Dissimulation » July 11th, 2018, 8:08 am

stating 2 ambiguous abstractions as a valid corralation to your conclusion is in error. Each abstraction in themselves demands an extensive development of thought, more so, because the magnitude of your conclusion demands a complete negation of all other possibilities in favor of your conclusion. ontology is indexical to the subject of discussion, in short incommensurable.

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Re: Ontology precedes ethics.

Post by Alias » July 15th, 2018, 4:52 pm

ReasonMadeFlesh wrote:
June 6th, 2018, 11:50 am
Mystics say....
edited for hyperborle

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Re: Ontology precedes ethics.

Post by Karpel Tunnel » July 16th, 2018, 6:08 am

ReasonMadeFlesh wrote:
June 6th, 2018, 11:50 am
Mystics say that all is one.

What they mean is that if you understand the nature of existence then you will also solve the problems of ethics and epistemology.

Why questions should be abandoned IMO.

There are only WHAT questions, and when you can see clearly, all the why questions disappear.
OK, let's say all is one, the mystics are correct. A man is raping my wife.

Everything is one.

What conclusions can I draw from that about his actions, my reactions, what to do, and how my various options - I discover this happening - should be ehtically evaluated?

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Re: Ontology precedes ethics.

Post by Alias » July 16th, 2018, 8:26 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
July 16th, 2018, 6:08 am
[OK, let's say all is one, the mystics are correct. A man is raping my wife.

Everything is one.

What conclusions can I draw from that about his actions, my reactions, what to do, and how my various options - I discover this happening - should be ehtically evaluated?
Cheater! That's not a WHY question.
Mystics don't have wives and don't care what happens to other people's wives: it's all the same to them.
Just leave their juniper berries alone.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire

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Re: Ontology precedes ethics.

Post by Greta » July 16th, 2018, 10:39 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
July 16th, 2018, 6:08 am
ReasonMadeFlesh wrote:
June 6th, 2018, 11:50 am
Mystics say that all is one.

What they mean is that if you understand the nature of existence then you will also solve the problems of ethics and epistemology.

Why questions should be abandoned IMO.

There are only WHAT questions, and when you can see clearly, all the why questions disappear.
OK, let's say all is one, the mystics are correct. A man is raping my wife.

Everything is one.

What conclusions can I draw from that about his actions, my reactions, what to do, and how my various options - I discover this happening - should be ehtically evaluated?
Yes, everything is one and what is happening is an exchange of energy and genetic material performed with a parasitic dynamic. At more basic levels of biology the line between mating and eating is blurred. Nature doesn't care any - it's just exchange of energy.

By the same token, we don't mourn when some rogue fungi defeats the first macrophage encountered.

Image

Stuff happens. I mean, like, go you little macrophages! I'm right in your corner! But if you get into bother you are on your own. All any of us can do for the helpful little predatory blobs that act as our immune systems is to eat and live well and avoid too much stress.

So it does our macrophages about as much good to be part of "all one" (person) as it does to be assaulted by a fellow denizen of the pale blue dot.

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Re: Ontology precedes ethics.

Post by Karpel Tunnel » July 17th, 2018, 1:20 am

Greta wrote:
July 16th, 2018, 10:39 pm
Yes, everything is one and what is happening is an exchange of energy and genetic material performed with a parasitic dynamic. At more basic levels of biology the line between mating and eating is blurred. Nature doesn't care any - it's just exchange of energy.
Fine, but there I am, my wife is getting raped.

I kill the guy. That's an exchange of energy.

I nicely try to persuade him to stop. That is an exchange of energy.

I weep or I rejoice. Those are exchanges of energy.

How does seeing everything as one lead to any ethics at all?
By the same token, we don't mourn when some rogue fungi defeats the first macrophage encountered.
Do you have judgments of mourning? Isn't it just an exchange of energy?
Stuff happens. I mean, like, go you little macrophages! I'm right in your corner! But if you get into bother you are on your own. All any of us can do for the helpful little predatory blobs that act as our immune systems is to eat and live well and avoid too much stress.

So it does our macrophages about as much good to be part of "all one" (person) as it does to be assaulted by a fellow denizen of the pale blue dot.
It seems like you have judgments of emotion. All is one, but if you get into a bother, I reject you

Aren't emotions part of the one?

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Re: Ontology precedes ethics.

Post by Greta » July 17th, 2018, 3:47 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
July 17th, 2018, 1:20 am
How does seeing everything as one lead to any ethics at all?
A global view can lead to a broadened ethic and lead some to a general sense of care, trying to move through life with a "light touch", attempting to minimise harm as much as possible, not just to humans, but to animals, plants and the environment generally.

Astronauts from the ISS routinely report a changed perspective from seeing the Earth as one thing from space. They tend to say that their revised perspective sees the planet and its denizens as especially precious.
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
By the same token, we don't mourn when some rogue fungi defeats the first macrophage encountered.
Do you have judgments of mourning? Isn't it just an exchange of energy?
In case you are wondering, no I am not a Trumpian psychopath and I experience plenty of regular human emotion like many other hominids. Thus I have no need to justify or rationalise my emotional responses, nor to engage in emotional display behaviour on cue to prove I am not inhuman. However, in quiet times we can consider what's going on in the big picture ...

So, to that end ... mourning is a relatively chaotic state in an organism that interferes with its capacity to operate normally. As with any depressed, sick or saddened state there are clear signals we have evolved so others in a group to recognise their distress and allow them recuperation by reducing demands on them for a while.

But I didn't mourn my dead macrophages - I just absorbed and excreted them. As do you. We are almost as inhuman in our attitude towards our macrophages as giant governments and mutlinational companies are towards their human resource units!

Alas, the carnage within the body is too great a tragedy to consciously take on board - all those little dead cells that had so furiously worked to equalise their next reflexes in the cause of human health - dead without ceremony! Millions of little microbial carcasses every day. But it's still hard to care unless it affects our health, yes? :)
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
So it does our macrophages about as much good to be part of "all one" (person) as it does to be assaulted by a fellow denizen of the pale blue dot.
It seems like you have judgments of emotion. All is one, but if you get into a bother, I reject you

Aren't emotions part of the one?
Brains and nervous systems are the seat of ethics. They create emotions - the need to either pursue growth or avoid suffering - and thus we develop ethics around those needs and the empathy we feel. No brains or nervous systems? No one cares? Thus, our little macrophage servants do their duties largely unrecognised.

We are both one and many. Thus there's twin responsibilities, but self usually has to come first in that equation because, aside from our survival instincts, we aren't much use to anyone dead (aside from acting as physical or financial fertiliser).

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Re: Ontology precedes ethics.

Post by Karpel Tunnel » July 17th, 2018, 11:25 am

Greta wrote:
July 17th, 2018, 3:47 am
Karpel Tunnel wrote:Do you have judgments of mourning? Isn't it just an exchange of energy?
In case you are wondering, no I am not a Trumpian psychopath and I experience plenty of regular human emotion like many other hominids. Thus I have no need to justify or rationalise my emotional responses, nor to engage in emotional display behaviour on cue to prove I am not inhuman.
I am not sure where this came from. I asked if you had judgments of mourning. I didn’t accuse you of being a psychopath. It seems like you have judgments of mourning and other emotions. And you didn’t answer the question: isn’t is just an exchange of energy like the rape or anything else?
So, to that end ... mourning is a relatively chaotic state in an organism that interferes with its capacity to operate normally.
1) When mourning a social mammal is being normal. There can be problematic forms of grief, but normal grief is part of what we are. The animals that grieve tend to be the dominant life forms in their ecosystems. Pharma has in recent years decided to create a market by pathologizing natural mourning processes. There’s good, widespread professional critique of pharma’s parasitical attack on grief.
2) Why are we talking about mourning? The scenario was someone raping my wife.
3) Even IF mourning was pathological, it would still be an exchange of energy, part of the one. We are supposed to react negatively to stress and grief but not to rape?
But I didn't mourn my dead macrophages - I just absorbed and excreted them. As do you. We are almost as inhuman in our attitude towards our macrophages as giant governments and mutlinational companies are towards their human resource units!
I’m a pantheist but there is no reason to think macrophages feel pain. There wouldn’t be anything I could do about it, in any case. My wife on the other hand, as a social mammal, has the ability to suffer emotional physical pain.
Karpel Tunnel wrote:It seems like you have judgments of emotion. All is one, but if you get into a bother, I reject you

Aren't emotions part of the one?
Brains and nervous systems are the seat of ethics. They create emotions - the need to either pursue growth or avoid suffering - and thus we develop ethics around those needs and the empathy we feel. No brains or nervous systems? No one cares? Thus, our little macrophage servants do their duties largely unrecognised.
I don’t see you answering the questions. Aren’t emotions part of the one?
Are you really arguing that my reaction to my wife getting raped is hypocritical because I don’t get upset when my microphages die?
We are both one and many. Thus there's twin responsibilities, but self usually has to come first in that equation because, aside from our survival instincts, we aren't much use to anyone dead (aside from acting as physical or financial fertiliser).
Well, we’d be useful to microorganisms, and it would just be an exchange of energy. I am not sure why you accept the survival instinct. It, like my emotional reactions to the rape, seemed not to understand that everything is just an exchange of energy.

I don't think you are a psychopath, but you are ending up saying and implying things that are psychopathological.

Often when people have ideas like 'it is all an exchange of energy' or 'it is all one' these ideas bring them some peace. Fine. But the problem arises externally when they interact with others, because since a strong attachment to the idea is that peace, they end up judging the emotions of others (and their own) as confused.

The irony is that implicitly emotions are judged as negative by someone who believes everything is one, it's all an exchange of energy. Well, emotions would be a part of that. So they should be just as neutral as rape and macrophages dying and so on. But they are not, why`? Because the belief is attractive precisely because it prioritizes peace. Peace is just another state. It should not be prioritized and other state pathologized. If it all is one and exchanges of energy, etc.

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Re: Ontology precedes ethics.

Post by Greta » July 17th, 2018, 8:41 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
July 17th, 2018, 11:25 am
Greta wrote:
July 17th, 2018, 3:47 am

In case you are wondering, no I am not a Trumpian psychopath and I experience plenty of regular human emotion like many other hominids. Thus I have no need to justify or rationalise my emotional responses, nor to engage in emotional display behaviour on cue to prove I am not inhuman.
I am not sure where this came from. I asked if you had judgments of mourning. I didn’t accuse you of being a psychopath. It seems like you have judgments of mourning and other emotions. And you didn’t answer the question: isn’t is just an exchange of energy like the rape or anything else?
It came from the implications in your post, later confirmed by you referring to what I am saying as psychopathic.

Consider this: according to you, simply discussing something without providing emotional display behaviour cues is psychopathic.

No, I often run into trouble because I absolutely REFUSE to engage in those display behaviours, to emote on cue because it's expected to prove that you care. Ugh. People can trust that I care, and if they do not and cannot glean that from my posts, they are too paranoid too worry about.

Rapes and murders are largely the acquisition of energy by one entity from another. I didn't answer the question directly because it was that unenlightening and, as noted above, I don't like boring ritual in conversation.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
So, to that end ... mourning is a relatively chaotic state in an organism that interferes with its capacity to operate normally.
1) When mourning a social mammal is being normal. There can be problematic forms of grief, but normal grief is part of what we are. The animals that grieve tend to be the dominant life forms in their ecosystems. Pharma has in recent years decided to create a market by pathologizing natural mourning processes. There’s good, widespread professional critique of pharma’s parasitical attack on grief.
2) Why are we talking about mourning? The scenario was someone raping my wife.
3) Even IF mourning was pathological, it would still be an exchange of energy, part of the one. We are supposed to react negatively to stress and grief but not to rape?
I raised mourning because you raised the rape of your wife so I assumed that, in such a scenario, there would be some mourning involved.

Since when is a chaotic state "pathological"? Obviously human states vary from the highly focused to the relatively chaotic and that has NOTHING to do with pathology.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Brains and nervous systems are the seat of ethics. They create emotions - the need to either pursue growth or avoid suffering - and thus we develop ethics around those needs and the empathy we feel. No brains or nervous systems? No one cares? Thus, our little macrophage servants do their duties largely unrecognised.
I don’t see you answering the questions. Aren’t emotions part of the one?
Are you really arguing that my reaction to my wife getting raped is hypocritical because I don’t get upset when my microphages die?
Oh for fnuk's sake, man, ease off on the paranoia! I am simply pointing out an interesting situation where our relationship with the Earth in many ways echoes our microbes' relationship with us, in that being part of "the one" does not necessarily mean that "the one" of which we are part will even notice us, let alone care.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:I don't think you are a psychopath, but you are ending up saying and implying things that are psychopathological.
No, you are just demanding display behaviours from me and I see no need to obey.
Karpel Tunnel wrote:Often when people have ideas like 'it is all an exchange of energy' or 'it is all one' these ideas bring them some peace. Fine. But the problem arises externally when they interact with others, because since a strong attachment to the idea is that peace, they end up judging the emotions of others (and their own) as confused.

The irony is that implicitly emotions are judged as negative by someone who believes everything is one, it's all an exchange of energy. Well, emotions would be a part of that. So they should be just as neutral as rape and macrophages dying and so on. But they are not, why`? Because the belief is attractive precisely because it prioritizes peace. Peace is just another state. It should not be prioritized and other state pathologized. If it all is one and exchanges of energy, etc.
It seems you are thinking of and describing a particular person you met online. Many of us would have met "all is one" fanatics online here and there. They tend to be so out of touch that they are usually not worth rebutting anyway.

Further, your weak straw man attack on me regarding "exchange of energy" has not been thought through at all - as if the noticing the exchanges of energy in nature precludes the noticing of aesthetic and emotional content. Get real.

I already made clear why human and macrophages have different moral import - nervous systems and brains. It's very, very simple. If entities feel something or are loved/valued by a feeling entity, then ethics apply, if not, then other considerations apply.

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Re: Ontology precedes ethics.

Post by Karpel Tunnel » August 28th, 2018, 7:53 pm

Greta wrote:
July 17th, 2018, 8:41 pm
It came from the implications in your post, later confirmed by you referring to what I am saying as psychopathic.
I said specifically that I did not think you were a psychopath.
Consider this: according to you, simply discussing something without providing emotional display behaviour cues is psychopathic.
Could you show me where I said that. I don't think I would say that, certainly not as a general rule.
No, I often run into trouble because I absolutely REFUSE to engage in those display behaviours, to emote on cue because it's expected to prove that you care. Ugh. People can trust that I care, and if they do not and cannot glean that from my posts, they are too paranoid too worry about.
I caan't see you. I don't know what displays or not you have. I responded to what seemed like the presentation of a philosophy that saw mourning and even emotional reactions to violence as irrational. Since these are merely an exchange of energy.
Rapes and murders are largely the acquisition of energy by one entity from another. I didn't answer the question directly because it was that unenlightening and, as noted above, I don't like boring ritual in conversation.
Why dislike it? It is just an exchange of energy. Why the displa of emotion, in the word
'dislike'-
IOW all these acts are simply exchanges of energy. Why should one be bothered by them
but then boring rituals of conversation, that you dislike.
I raised mourning because you raised the rape of your wife so I assumed that, in such a scenario, there would be some mourning involved.
It might later, yes. IN the moment of noticing it, other emotions would predominate, I think.
Since when is a chaotic state "pathological"?
You referred to it as interfering with the capacity to function normally. That is what diseases, disorders and medical conditions do.

Obviously human states vary from the highly focused to the relatively chaotic and that has NOTHING to do with pathology.
That may be true, but when something interferes with its ability to function normally you are talking about a kind of pathology. In any case you seemed to consider mourning to be negative and compared it to being sick....
So, to that end ... mourning is a relatively chaotic state in an organism that interferes with its capacity to operate normally. As with any depressed, sick or saddened state there are clear signals we have evolved so others in a group to recognise their distress and allow them recuperation by reducing demands on them for a while.
my emphasis. I don't think my characterization of your description of mourning as pathological is at all unfair, here grouped with a psychological disorder, depression, and the word 'sick'.


Oh for fnuk's sake, man, ease off on the paranoia!
I find this pretty poor coming from a site admin. First it wouldn't be an example of paranoia but 2) more importantly it is to the man. When talking about harsh human interactions you brought up us not mourning or caring about the macrophages dying inside us. I asked!!!!!!!! if you really were trying to say that we shouldn't have strong emotional reactions to violence between humans since we do not care what happens to macrophages. I think it was a fair read of what you were saying, BUT I ASKED if it was really what you intended.
I am simply pointing out an interesting situation where our relationship with the Earth in many ways echoes our microbes' relationship with us, in that being part of "the one" does not necessarily mean that "the one" of which we are part will even notice us, let alone care.
Ssure but you said this in response to examples where humans are interacting with other humans.
No, you are just demanding display behaviours from me and I see no need to obey.
I have at not point demanded you display behaviors.
It seems you are thinking of and describing a particular person you met online. Many of us would have met "all is one" fanatics online here and there. They tend to be so out of touch that they are usually not worth rebutting anyway.

Further, your weak straw man attack on me regarding "exchange of energy" has not been thought through at all - as if the noticing the exchanges of energy in nature precludes the noticing of aesthetic and emotional content. Get real.
Great, I am glad you are not one of these fanatics. I am not sure what point you were making then with that these things are merely exchanges of energy, and this also holds for corporations and even interpersonal interactions that many deem negative.
I already made clear why human and macrophages have different moral import - nervous systems and brains. It's very, very simple. If entities feel something or are loved/valued by a feeling entity, then ethics apply, if not, then other considerations apply.
So then the macrophages are not something we should be concerned about. I am not sure what bringing them up in the context was intended to point out.
But I didn't mourn my dead macrophages - I just absorbed and excreted them. As do you. We are almost as inhuman in our attitude towards our macrophages as giant governments and mutlinational companies are towards their human resource units!
We wouldn't then, given what you say now, be inhuman in reaction to the deaths of our macrophages, because they do not have brains and nervous systems. So I am not sure why you worded it this way.

or here...

I asked
OK, let's say all is one, the mystics are correct. A man is raping my wife.

Everything is one.

What conclusions can I draw from that about his actions, my reactions, what to do, and how my various options - I discover this happening - should be ehtically evaluated?
you responded
Yes, everything is one and what is happening is an exchange of energy and genetic material performed with a parasitic dynamic. At more basic levels of biology the line between mating and eating is blurred. Nature doesn't care any - it's just exchange of energy.

By the same token, we don't mourn when some rogue fungi defeats the first macrophage encountered.

Image

Stuff happens. I mean, like, go you little macrophages! I'm right in your corner! But if you get into bother you are on your own. All any of us can do for the helpful little predatory blobs that act as our immune systems is to eat and live well and avoid too much stress.
It seemed like, given my very specific question of how this idea applies in relation to a man raping my wife, that we don't mourn macrophages, everything is an exchange of energy, so...
it sure seemed like you were saying there was no reason to get worked up about the rape.
So it does our macrophages about as much good to be part of "all one" (person) as it does to be assaulted by a fellow denizen of the pale blue dot.
Now you may not have meant that, but then I don't think you answered my question. I did my best and I don't think it was an unfair take since I assumed you were answering my question.

I did my best with that and for that I get called paranoid, accused of demanding a display of behaviors, whereas it seemed like you were seeing emotional reactions in others, which would include me, as pathological. You seem to find it absurd that I took you as saying mourning was pathological, but you said it was like being depressed and sick and something OUTSIDE normal functioning and/or something that interferes with normal functioning.

That sure seemed like you judging other people's reactions. When I quesiton this this is taken as me demanding YOU to behave in certain ways. I don't have the slightest idea how you behave, I don't think I made any demand regarding specific behavior YOU should have.

Perhaps as a site admin you could read this exchange as see if my responses might not be paranoid, but simply confused by what now seems like confusing communication on your part. Besides, it could not be paranoia. I do not think you or anyone else is plotting against me. I disliked what I considered to be judgments of emotions that I consider normal. Perhaps you do not judge them negatively, but this mistake - and perhaps one your own communication contributed to - on my part would not bet paranoia.

Mull this over or not, but I am out of this discussion.

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Re: Ontology precedes ethics.

Post by Greta » August 28th, 2018, 9:03 pm

Your comment "Do you have judgments of mourning? Isn't it just an exchange of energy?" was simply a negative spin put on my posting, an implication that I was posting from an inhuman standpoint (and also missed the point I'd hoped to make).

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Re: Ontology precedes ethics.

Post by ThomasHobbes » August 29th, 2018, 5:45 am

ReasonMadeFlesh wrote:
June 6th, 2018, 11:50 am
Mystics say that all is one.

What they mean is that if you understand the nature of existence then you will also solve the problems of ethics and epistemology.

Why questions should be abandoned IMO.

There are only WHAT questions, and when you can see clearly, all the why questions disappear.
I agree that there are no why's except personal performative ones.
But I think the "whats" are empty without the "hows".
What and How, but no Why!

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