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Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

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Steve3007
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Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by Steve3007 » September 10th, 2018, 8:19 am

I read that John Bolton, the Trump Administration's national security adviser, will today be giving a speech indicating the administration's absolute distain for the International Criminal Court (ICC). He will apparently be saying:

The United States will use any means necessary to protect our citizens and those of our allies from unjust prosecution by this illegitimate court.
The United States will always stand with our friend and ally, Israel.
We will not cooperate with the ICC. We will provide no assistance to the ICC. We will not join the ICC. We will let the ICC die on its own. After all, for all intents and purposes, the ICC is already dead to us.
We will consider taking steps in the UN Security Council to constrain the court’s sweeping powers, including to ensure that the ICC does not exercise jurisdiction over Americans and the nationals of our allies that have not ratified the Rome Statute.

Is this music to the ears of tyrants the world over? Has the one tiny chance for the international accountability of the rich and powerful finally been removed? Is this an explicit acknowledgement that, in international affairs, there is one and only rule: the rule of physical force?

Or am I being hysterical and should calm down? Is Bolton right to criticise the ICC?

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Re: Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by Georgeanna » September 10th, 2018, 8:42 am

I have no idea what is going on. The world seems truly ****'d.
Thanks for adding to my sense of outrage.
Just what I needed.
Thanks.

Now the end is nigh. I am switching off.
Good Luck to one and all.

Steve3007
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Re: Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by Steve3007 » September 10th, 2018, 8:45 am

Jeez, I didn't expect my little topic to have that much of an effect. Don't give up hope Georgeanna. Worse things happen at sea.

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Re: Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by Fooloso4 » September 10th, 2018, 10:57 am

The speech is to the Federalist Society. He is preaching to the choir. The US is not a state party and has never officially recognized its authority. The argument is that this undermines the sovereignty of a nation.

I don’t think this means the we are left with the rule of physical force (A theme from this week’s reading on another thread). Diplomacy and trade sanctions may be a form of force, but not physical force. But if a nation has nothing that others want they are in this regard powerless.

The ICC’s power may lie in its ability to expose injustice. The current administration's concern for reputation seems to be limited to its strong man image, but in a global economy no single person or state gets to call the shots.

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Re: Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by LuckyR » September 11th, 2018, 2:36 am

I predict the ICC will give this bluster it's proper level of attention, they will essentially ignore it.
"As usual... it depends."

Steve3007
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Re: Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by Steve3007 » September 11th, 2018, 11:58 am

Fooloso4 wrote:I don’t think this means the we are left with the rule of physical force (A theme from this week’s reading on another thread). Diplomacy and trade sanctions may be a form of force, but not physical force. But if a nation has nothing that others want they are in this regard powerless.
Yes, true. I shouldn't have specifically said physical force.

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Re: Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by Steve3007 » September 11th, 2018, 12:00 pm

LuckyR wrote:I predict the ICC will give this bluster it's proper level of attention, they will essentially ignore it.
If it's backed up by economic sanctions against judges by the most powerful economy in the world then it's more than just bluster.

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Re: Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by LuckyR » September 12th, 2018, 1:40 am

Steve3007 wrote:
September 11th, 2018, 12:00 pm
LuckyR wrote:I predict the ICC will give this bluster it's proper level of attention, they will essentially ignore it.
If it's backed up by economic sanctions against judges by the most powerful economy in the world then it's more than just bluster.
So you predict the ICC will cave to the US?
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by Steve3007 » September 24th, 2018, 6:50 pm

So you predict the ICC will cave to the US?
I think the current US administration presumably just intends to ignore the ICC. Maybe they're partly right about the ICC. But if they are, then I think the question remains as to whether the whole concept of International Law, and judges passing judgement with reference to that law, is meaningful. Or whether we should just accept that, in an international context, "might is right". Where "might" is economic, military or a combination of the two.

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Re: Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by Alias » September 30th, 2018, 10:59 pm

Maybe not dead. Certainly comatose. If the US recovers its sanity before the present administration is able to consolidate its power and destroy any semblance of democratic process as well as the constitution, there may be some hope of international law with the US participating.
Alternatively, this latest American tantrum may prompt a new co-operation among the other nations - and, who knows, the US may self-destruct before it can blow up too much of the planet.

I'm not holding my breath.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire

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Re: Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by ThomasHobbes » October 1st, 2018, 7:31 am

Steve3007 wrote:
September 10th, 2018, 8:19 am
I read that John Bolton, the Trump Administration's national security adviser, will today be giving a speech indicating the administration's absolute distain for the International Criminal Court (ICC). He will apparently be saying:

The United States will use any means necessary to protect our citizens and those of our allies from unjust prosecution by this illegitimate court.
The United States will always stand with our friend and ally, Israel.
We will not cooperate with the ICC. We will provide no assistance to the ICC. We will not join the ICC. We will let the ICC die on its own. After all, for all intents and purposes, the ICC is already dead to us.
We will consider taking steps in the UN Security Council to constrain the court’s sweeping powers, including to ensure that the ICC does not exercise jurisdiction over Americans and the nationals of our allies that have not ratified the Rome Statute.

Is this music to the ears of tyrants the world over? Has the one tiny chance for the international accountability of the rich and powerful finally been removed? Is this an explicit acknowledgement that, in international affairs, there is one and only rule: the rule of physical force?

Or am I being hysterical and should calm down? Is Bolton right to criticise the ICC?
Neither Bolton nor Trump represent the international community. They barely represent a tiny minority of Americans.
They are temporary. There is a chance that the US shall wise up - though I'm not going to hold my breath.
The rest of the world shall abide even to the point of the US falling into civil strife and even civil war.
So the answer is no. The rest of the world can get along without you.

Prospects for the US are extremely poor and the little Trump as managed to do, has done nothing to alleviate that; it has only put the US in the wrong direction. The UN were right to laugh at Trump's risible speech. I used to think that Bush was the biggest possible embarrassment to the US, until Trump - could it get worse? Maybe!

What's needed is a true people's movement from the roots to bring radical reform to the US's failed "democracy". Hilary it ain't. Obama was the best prospect yet, but he was rendered impotent by the systems of of corruption, self serving politicians, and the plutocracy.

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Re: Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by Steve3007 » October 1st, 2018, 7:55 am

ThomasHobbes wrote:Neither Bolton nor Trump represent the international community. They barely represent a tiny minority of Americans.
They are temporary...
This is true. But while they are in their temporary positions of power they can use the military and (probably more significantly) economic dominance of the US to force through their view of the world, regardless of the small percentage of the world population (and US population) who they represent. I guess this is why the furore over the appointment of Brett Kavanaugh is so huge. Everything in this life is temporary, but supreme court judges are nowhere near as temporary as presidential administrations.

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Re: Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by ThomasHobbes » October 1st, 2018, 9:07 am

Steve3007 wrote:
October 1st, 2018, 7:55 am
ThomasHobbes wrote:Neither Bolton nor Trump represent the international community. They barely represent a tiny minority of Americans.
They are temporary...
This is true. But while they are in their temporary positions of power they can use the military and (probably more significantly) economic dominance of the US to force through their view of the world, regardless of the small percentage of the world population (and US population) who they represent. I guess this is why the furore over the appointment of Brett Kavanaugh is so huge. Everything in this life is temporary, but supreme court judges are nowhere near as temporary as presidential administrations.
That is for the US to decide, or, more likely, to put their head in the sand over. The UN and the international community can continue to snigger. We'll see if the US are dumb enough to allow Trump to mobile the military. But as far as the OP goes I do no think Tump is going to manage to derail international law in the longer term.

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by ThomasHobbes » October 1st, 2018, 9:08 am

ERROR; "mobile" = mobilise. Tump = Trump.

My typing is well orffff! ATM

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Re: Is all hope of the ideal of international law now dead?

Post by Alias » October 1st, 2018, 12:06 pm

The trouble is, these days, with technology and all the environmental, economic and human crises, very bad things can happen very fast. Trump is temporary, but he'll leave a wide swathe of devastation - not least, as the harbinger of this current spate of fascist, fascist-like and fascist-lite administrations world-wide. I'm not saying it's his personal fault, only that his prominence has encouraged all the wood-worms to come forth. Most of them won't be as easy to replace as he is...
...and I'm somewhat apprehensive as to the agenda of the president-in-waiting, should Trump spontaneously combust or bit a peach.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire

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