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Brett Kavanaugh

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Steve3007
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Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Steve3007 » October 3rd, 2018, 9:44 am

US politics again.

Did you watch the testimonies of Christine Blasey Ford and Brett Kavanaugh to the Senate committee? Do you think she was a credible witness and/or that the charges levelled against Kavanaugh are persuasive? Or do you think that this whole thing has been made up by some Democrats to stop the balance in the Supreme Court from being tipped in favour of conservative for, potentially, decades to come?

If you think the latter, and if you are strongly opposed to this tipping, would you consider that such a plot might be justified? Might the end justify the means? Or would the use of a false sexual assault allegation set such a terrible precedent, and do such damage to the perceived credibility of genuine sexual assault victims, that no end could justify such a means?

President Trump started by saying that he found Ford's testimony to be credible. But in a recent political rally to his followers he mocked her testimony, to the entertainment of the crowd. This has drawn criticism from Republican Jeff Flake (among others) whose vote is important for the elevation of Kavanaugh to the US Supreme Court.

For this reason, do you think this latest intervention by Trump might actually result in that elevation not happening?

Fooloso4
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Fooloso4 » October 3rd, 2018, 10:53 am

I watched. I believe her. She came forward on her own and made it clear that it was because of what he did and not his political or judicial views. The Democrats and the Republicans both are concerned with the balance on the Supreme Court. While it is true that the Democrats would prefer to wait until after the midterm elections, the Republican leadership used this as a smokescreen to push through without an investigation. It was indefensible to refuse to allow for an FBI investigation. There is ample time before the midterms for a one week investigation. If the investigation turns up enough evidence to warrant further investigation then that too is appropriate, and if the Republicans again tried to push him through it would be them not the Democrats making it a matter of politics rather than justice.

If it were a plot against him I do not think the means justify the ends. Trumped up charges would be damaging to the MeToo movement, but that is not the reason why I do not think the means justify the ends. If he did nothing wrong then he should not be falsely accused and sacrificed in order to change the balance of the court.

I don’t think that what Trump says at his rallies will make a difference. If there are senators who have not already made up their mind, Trump’s antics will not sway them one way or another. He has a great deal of political power, but it is widely recognized by Republicans that he is an idiot with impulse control issues. It will not be a matter of what Trump says but what the pressure exerted on members behind closed doors that will push them one way and any additional evidence uncovered that will push them the other. But I don’t think the FBI will uncover anything new. They will provide evidence that Kavanaugh had a drinking problem, but that might be dismissed as youthful indiscretion. His conduct at the hearings raises questions about his truthfulness and temperament, but this will not matter as much as his conservativism does. It is clear how he will vote and if the senators would vote as they think he would then that will be the deciding factor.

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LuckyR
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by LuckyR » October 4th, 2018, 2:54 am

In this Post Fact era, nothing matters anymore. The Supreme Court can openly be populated by political hacks. Sexual predators can hold any political position as long as there is no video of the act. Even audio confessions are meaningless. It is all about pandering to contributors, no one else's opinion matters, everyone in power is bought and sold.
"As usual... it depends."

Georgeanna
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Georgeanna » October 4th, 2018, 5:40 am

Steve3007 wrote:
October 3rd, 2018, 9:44 am
US politics again.

Did you watch the testimonies of Christine Blasey Ford and Brett Kavanaugh to the Senate committee? Do you think she was a credible witness and/or that the charges levelled against Kavanaugh are persuasive? Or do you think that this whole thing has been made up by some Democrats to stop the balance in the Supreme Court from being tipped in favour of conservative for, potentially, decades to come?

If you think the latter, and if you are strongly opposed to this tipping, would you consider that such a plot might be justified? Might the end justify the means? Or would the use of a false sexual assault allegation set such a terrible precedent, and do such damage to the perceived credibility of genuine sexual assault victims, that no end could justify such a means?

President Trump started by saying that he found Ford's testimony to be credible. But in a recent political rally to his followers he mocked her testimony, to the entertainment of the crowd. This has drawn criticism from Republican Jeff Flake (among others) whose vote is important for the elevation of Kavanaugh to the US Supreme Court.

For this reason, do you think this latest intervention by Trump might actually result in that elevation not happening?
US politics again. Yes. I can't recall ever being so intrigued or nauseated by the latest performances - all live in real time and so very revealing.
I didn't watch the whole shebang, I only followed online updates and snippets of video.

My impressions were that Christine Blasey Ford was telling the truth, as far as she could recall. She was 100% sure that it was Kavanaugh.
I doubt that this was made up by Democrats. However, I'm glad that it paused the confirmation process long enough so that everyone could see Kavanaugh and his behaviour close up. I doubt that this will prevent him, or someone of his ilk,from gaining a lifetime tenure in the Supreme Court and tipping the balance. Lifetime, really ?

Trump is so very proud of his man. How can a presidential nominee ever be objective in matters of law. It's all about following the ideology.
Talking of which. Religion and the rhetoric of evil - the evangelical Trump, mocking, finger pointing, stirring up hate towards whole groups of people.

This is behaviour at rallies is not becoming of anyone, far less a President. But his people lap it up. He preaches to the converted.
The religious right.

The standout part for me, was right at the end of Kavanaugh's testimony. I tried to find the transcript and got this:
God and Man at the Kavanaugh hearing

https://marksilk.religionnews.com/2018/ ... h-hearing/

''...Sen. John Neely Kennedy (Methodist) of Louisiana. “Do you believe in God,” he queried. “I do,” replied the judge. Whereupon Kennedy proceeded to afford the witness “a last opportunity, right here, right in front of God and country. I want you to look me in the eye.

KENNEDY: None of these allegations are true?
KAVANAUGH: Correct.

KENNEDY: No doubt in your mind?
KAVANAUGH: Zero, I’m 100 percent certain.

KENNEDY: Not even a scintilla?
KAVANAUGH: Not a scintilla; 100 percent certain, senator.

KENNEDY: You swear to God?
KAVANAUGH: I swear to God.

......

Prudence, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, “is the virtue that disposes practical reason to discern our true good in every circumstance and to choose the right means of achieving it.” Exercising their prudential judgment, the editors reached the conclusion that “[t]he best of the bad resolutions available in this dilemma is for Judge Kavanaugh’s nomination to be withdrawn.”

As they wait for the FBI to deliver the results of its investigation, it would be good if the President and the Republican members of the world’s greatest deliberative body take this judgment to heart.''

Note how the 100% sure is mirrored in the response. Both Ford and Kavanaugh appear to cancel each other out.
I have no idea whether Ford believes in God, or not. The question was not asked.
How much would it matter if she was an atheist ?
In America, it would seem a lot.
In God We Trust.

They prayed for Trump. And Trump is what they got. And Trump seems to get what he wants.
Kavanaugh.

Unless people get a back bone. And do more than merely criticise Trump's behaviour as 'appalling'. Talk about understatement.

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by ThomasHobbes » October 4th, 2018, 5:41 am

If you allow supreme court judges to be appointed politically, **** is going to happen.
This is just a symptom of a widely failed system of democracy.

Georgeanna
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Georgeanna » October 4th, 2018, 5:46 am

ThomasHobbes wrote:
October 4th, 2018, 5:41 am
If you allow supreme court judges to be appointed politically, **** is going to happen.
This is just a symptom of a widely failed system of democracy.
Short and sweet. So true.

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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Alias » October 4th, 2018, 10:17 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
October 4th, 2018, 5:41 am
If you allow supreme court judges to be appointed politically, **** is going to happen.
This is just a symptom of a widely failed system of democracy.
Yea! Who thought it was a good idea to politicize jurisprudence?

Georgeanna
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Georgeanna » October 5th, 2018, 6:56 am

Kavanaugh - immunity and accountability.

from : https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... vid-sirota

" The Immunity Project

...To the delight of the Republican party, Kavanaugh is not backing down in the face of multiple credible accusations of sexual misconduct. On the contrary, in a snarling refrain that must seem all-too-familiar to victims of sexual assault, Kavanaugh is angrily insisting that “you’ll never get me to quit”.

In the context of this political moment, Kavanaugh’s defiance is more than merely a plea of innocence. It is more than just an ideological warrior’s yearning to serve on a court that has been making it ever-harder for commoners to hold the aristocracy accountable. It is a grand edict detailing the entire culture of entitlement and immunity inside the accountability-free zone.

Here is a corporate lobbyist’s son armed with a prep school education, a diploma from his granddaddy’s Ivy League alma mater, a writing credit on Ken Starr’s Clinton-Lewinsky report, a law review article arguing that Congress should consider exempting presidents from indictments, and a sheaf of judicial opinions that consistently side with power.


Kavanaugh is precisely the pedigree that is the ticket into the accountability-free zone. His braying at senators, his laughably obvious dissembling, his refusal to explicitly support an FBI review of his accusers’ allegations – this is the behavior of someone who seems to believe a supreme court seat is his to arrogate.

Indeed, Kavanaugh has been inside the aristocracy’s hermetically sealed bubble for so long that he is genuinely surprised and outraged that anyone would dare get in his way – as are his biggest boosters such as Republican majority leader Mitch McConnell. Promising a forceful defense of the accountability-free zone, McConnell explicitly lashed out at sexual assault survivors who are now begging Republicans to vote down Kavanaugh’s nomination....''

'' The moral question remains: what can be done to restore some basic sense of fairness and justice?''
Read on...

Georgeanna
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Georgeanna » October 6th, 2018, 4:01 am

Steve3007 wrote:
October 3rd, 2018, 9:44 am
US politics again.

Did you watch the testimonies of Christine Blasey Ford and Brett Kavanaugh to the Senate committee? Do you think she was a credible witness and/or that the charges levelled against Kavanaugh are persuasive? Or do you think that this whole thing has been made up by some Democrats to stop the balance in the Supreme Court from being tipped in favour of conservative for, potentially, decades to come?

If you think the latter, and if you are strongly opposed to this tipping, would you consider that such a plot might be justified? Might the end justify the means? Or would the use of a false sexual assault allegation set such a terrible precedent, and do such damage to the perceived credibility of genuine sexual assault victims, that no end could justify such a means?

President Trump started by saying that he found Ford's testimony to be credible. But in a recent political rally to his followers he mocked her testimony, to the entertainment of the crowd. This has drawn criticism from Republican Jeff Flake (among others) whose vote is important for the elevation of Kavanaugh to the US Supreme Court.

For this reason, do you think this latest intervention by Trump might actually result in that elevation not happening?
Steve3007, this issue moved you enough to start a thread. You have now received a few responses to your questions.
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts and reactions.

Steve3007
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Steve3007 » October 6th, 2018, 4:37 am

Georgeanna wrote:Steve3007, this issue moved you enough to start a thread. You have now received a few responses to your questions.
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts and reactions.
Well, the first thing to note is that I'm viewing this from a distance (the UK) but that the mainstream news media here devote quite a lot of time to this story. For example, it's currently near the top of most news reporting on TV and radio. Which is an interesting fact.

The second thing to note is that it now looks like Kavanaugh will indeed be confirmed. So my speculation that Trump might have somehow scuppered it by openly mocking an alleged victim of sexual abuse was wrong. Fooloso4 (post #2) correctly stated why this would not influence the vote. The senators have (correctly) not paid attention to Trump's words because they're irrelevant and we all already know that he says and does these kinds of things and that it's all just part of this wonderful new world of "no political correctness" that he's ushered in. People in power openly mocking and demeaning anyone that crosses them for any reason, without the need for such old fashioned concepts as truth evidence or debate, is fine. Oh brave new world!

The third thing I note is the incredibly partisan atmosphere in the US which could have an interesting effect on the mid-terms; possible galvanizing people on both sides to vote. In theory, a judge is not a politician. He interprets the law. He doesn't make the laws. But we all know that it's more complicated than that and that therefore the political leanings of judges are significant factors. Therefore the appointment of these judges for life appears to be deeply undemocratic. A conservative's answer to me saying that would be: "That's just sour grapes. Liberals are just bad losers. Get used to it."

The final thing I note (for now) is that Trump's choice of Kavanaugh appears to be as much about his considerations of protecting himself from possible prosecutions, e.g. allowing him to pardon himself if necessary, than it is about the political leanings of Kavanaugh. I think we all know that Trump is apolitical. He's not a Republican. He's a Trumpian. The Republican Party is just the most effective host to infect and take over en route to power. I think most of his supporters know and accept all this and simply see Trump as the means to the end. A tool for doing a job. Tools (I suspect that they might argue) are frequently dirty and ugly. Doesn't matter.

With this in mind, it will be interesting to see if Kavanaugh gives Trump what he wants; if he keeps his end of the deal.

Georgeanna
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Georgeanna » October 6th, 2018, 5:42 am

Yes. The whole world may be viewing at a distance but TrumpLand is right in our face, every day.
We are getting to know American politics as never before, from various perspectives.
Fooloso4 clearly knows what he is talking about; his finger on the pulse of the state of America.

I don't think there was ever any real doubt that K would be confirmed, given the low majority required and the partisan set-up.

Trump's words and actions, not at a rally, but behind the scenes would definitely have had an impact. He approved an FBI investigation but a narrow one and on his terms.This might come back and bite him - possibly as obstruction of justice. But then it would be all denial; it would the fault of others who advised him. All he claims at rallies are facts, after all.

I hope you are right that people will be galvanised to vote. There seems to be an increased sense of anger but just how that relates to action and 'resistance' - well, we will see.

Alias
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Alias » October 6th, 2018, 9:07 pm

A step closer to either civil war or a return to the middle ages.... and then civil war.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire

Georgeanna
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Georgeanna » October 6th, 2018, 10:45 pm

Alias wrote:
October 6th, 2018, 9:07 pm
A step closer to either civil war or a return to the middle ages.... and then civil war.

Someone else talking about Kavanaugh and the middle ages or mediaeval times. Richard Wolffe, here:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... epublicans
Included a link to French pig trials :

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/t ... iddle-ages

'' Most complaints against smaller animals leveled for infestation or destruction of crops ended up in some sort of excommunication from the church, or official ecclesiastical denouncement. Evans explains that this was largely done as an effort to make people feel better about exterminating them. Since even weevils, slugs, rats, and such were considered God’s creatures, the devastation they inflicted was likely part of his plan, so to just destroy them would be to act against God’s will and creatures. Of course if they were tried in a church court, and excommunicated (or condemned in the case of animals and insects), that could mitigate guilt.''

-----

In a different kind of animal trial but still with God in the mainframe. We can ask about the sham or the shame of it:
Was it to mitigate a sense of guilt that Senator Susan Collins gave a long announcement to rationalise her decision to vote for Kavanaugh ?
Or perhaps she began to fear for her own life...following the hate-filled rantings of Trump to his crazed followers.
His finger pointing to the evil ones. The terrible mocking of Ford. Yes. Such partisan hatred will no doubt lead to violence and killings.

-----

''...Susan Collins, a self-styled moderate, who pretzeled herself trying to make sense of her own vote to confirm Kavanaugh. The judge, she said, was endorsed by the American Bar Association, preferring to ignore the fact that the ABA said it was re-evaluating that whole endorsement thing because Kavanaugh had acted so plain bonkers in the hearing last week.

Collins, like so many other seemingly sympathetic Republicans, said she believed Dr Ford’s testimony. She just didn’t actually believe her. “I believe that she is a survivor of a sexual assault and that this trauma has upended her life,” Collins said earnestly. “Nevertheless, the four witnesses she named could not corroborate any of the events of that evening gathering where she says the assault occurred.”

This makes about as much sense as all those medieval trials of French pig.''

''Brett Kavanaugh's confirmation isn't democracy. It's a judicial coup.''
Richard Wolffe

Steve3007
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Steve3007 » October 7th, 2018, 8:18 am

There was very interesting short interview with Conrad Black, about Kavanaugh and Trump, on the "The World This Weekend", on BBC Radio 4, at 1pm (UK time) today.

Georgeanna
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Georgeanna » October 7th, 2018, 8:24 am

Steve3007 wrote:
October 7th, 2018, 8:18 am
There was very interesting short interview with Conrad Black, about Kavanaugh and Trump, on the "The World This Weekend", on BBC Radio 4, at 1pm (UK time) today.
Oh, what a tease
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