Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

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Georgeanna
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Joined: October 29th, 2017, 1:17 pm

Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna » October 15th, 2018, 5:50 am

It's just what I've always thought - the world is going to hell because of angry men, religion and lack of sex. And climate change ain't helping.
Fascism, pure and simple. Yup.

The philosopher Jason Stanley has written a book ' How Fascism Works'.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... view-trump

'' The book provides a fascinating breakdown of the fascist ideology, nimbly interweaving examples from Germany, Italy and Hungary, from Rwanda and Myanmar to Serbia and, yes, the US. As he proceeds through his framework of the broadest features of his subject, Stanley includes smaller observations that may for some readers land bracingly close to home.

“In all fascist mythic pasts,” he writes, “an extreme version of the patriarchal family reigns supreme, even just a few generations ago…

“In the rhetoric of extreme nationalists, such a glorious past has been lost by the humiliation brought on by globalism, liberal cosmopolitanism, and respect for ‘universal values’ such as equality. These values are supposed to have made the nation weak in the face of real and threatening challenges to the nation’s existence.”

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Another review of the book here:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/11/book ... works.html

''By placing Trump in transnational and transhistorical perspective, Stanley sees patterns that others miss. He notes the apparent paradox that Trump — like many fascist politicians — rode to power in part by attacking government “corruption,” yet practices it even more brazenly himself. The explanation, Stanley suggests, lies in what fascists actually mean by the term. “Corruption, to the fascist politician,” he argues, “is really about the corruption of purity rather than of law. Officially, the fascist politician’s denunciations of corruption sound like a denunciation of political corruption. But such talk is intended to evoke corruption in the sense of the usurpation of traditional order.”

It's so easy to splash the word 'fascist' about without knowing anything of its meaning or history.
Some blame Plato...
I dunno...
But it has to be some historical guy's fault cos yeah, women never had a voice.

Burning ghost
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Burning ghost » October 15th, 2018, 5:52 am

Nice provocative title ;)

I hope it doesn’t distract people fro applying themselves to this in a level-headed manner.
AKA badgerjelly

Burning ghost
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Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Burning ghost » October 15th, 2018, 6:06 am

I’ll throw one thing out there ... fascism is not the sole property of far right views. Fascism is something that manifests in both far right and far left ideologies.

Further still ... the “right” is associated with masculine attributes (not male attributes), and the left is associated with feminine attributes (not female attributes.)

In wester civilization today it can hardly be called an absolute “patriarchy” given that, especially in Europe - and more so Northern Europe - that there is an obvious socialist presence (all for the better imo.) If you’re from the US then you may be less inclined to see, and or experience, this difference? Or maybe not if you’re interested in global politics and have an open mind?

Fascism is a human thing for sure. I do believe you’d find this kind of behaviour in other species too if you looked closely enough.
AKA badgerjelly

Georgeanna
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Joined: October 29th, 2017, 1:17 pm

Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna » October 15th, 2018, 6:10 am

Burning ghost wrote:
October 15th, 2018, 5:52 am
Nice provocative title ;)

I hope it doesn’t distract people fro applying themselves to this in a level-headed manner.
Bring it on :)
I haven't ever ventured forth in what might be termed 'feminist' realms - for various reasons. And this isn't about man hatred, honest guv.
I'm sure if people get too rowdy, the fascist mods will be right on their case :wink:

I think the term 'fascism' is worth exploring from all perspectives...

Burning ghost
Posts: 2805
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Burning ghost » October 15th, 2018, 6:15 am

Yeah, I was pre-empting the onrush of delicate minded man-things ;)

We’re a frail and emotional bunch after all! :D

Whatever it is it is about bringing people together in order to oppose others usually via vilification.
AKA badgerjelly

Eduk
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Eduk » October 15th, 2018, 7:04 am

Why did women never have a voice?
Unknown means unknown.

Georgeanna
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Joined: October 29th, 2017, 1:17 pm

Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna » October 15th, 2018, 7:25 am

Burning ghost wrote:
October 15th, 2018, 6:06 am
I’ll throw one thing out there ... fascism is not the sole property of far right views. Fascism is something that manifests in both far right and far left ideologies.

Further still ... the “right” is associated with masculine attributes (not male attributes), and the left is associated with feminine attributes (not female attributes.)

In wester civilization today it can hardly be called an absolute “patriarchy” given that, especially in Europe - and more so Northern Europe - that there is an obvious socialist presence (all for the better imo.) If you’re from the US then you may be less inclined to see, and or experience, this difference? Or maybe not if you’re interested in global politics and have an open mind?

Fascism is a human thing for sure. I do believe you’d find this kind of behaviour in other species too if you looked closely enough.
I'm reading up on it, so I welcome any views and sources. It was interesting to hear that it manifests in both far right and left ideologies.
It seems to be non theoretical but practical, reactive - whatever policy brings power and strength to the nation.

Where did you get the idea re left = feminine attibutes and right = masculine ? And how difficult is it not to use easy labels like 'left' and 'right' ?
It is deplorable how such labels are bandied about as derogatory descriptions...left = bad; right =good.
The right have the best label don't they. They are right. If you're not right you're wrong.
Tory politicians annoy the hell out of me when they start with ' It is right that...' before proclaiming destructive policies.
Has anyone here experienced, or think they are about to experience fascism ?

So back to the question :

What is fascism?
Is there a helpful definition.
Mussolini had a few things to say, as does the Telegraph:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/fasc ... sts-today/


'' You’ll often hear Left-wing people saying that fascism was a Right-wing movement because it stressed race or national identity. But some Right-wing thinkers insist it was a Left-wing movement because it rejected class elitism and put controls on the economy. The truth is that fascists usually defined themselves as being neither Left nor Right but a combination of whatever policies helped to win power and "rejuvenate" the nation.

The thinker and historian Ernst Nolte argued that fascism was the great “anti” philosophy that united people frightened by social and economic change: anti-Semitic, anti-socialist, anti-feminist, anti-democracy.

These were its unifying principles:
Hatred of democracy. Power should be held by those strong and clever enough to seize it, preferably a dictator.
The necessity of violence. Force is a legitimate way to achieve power and war is good because it binds us together.
Biology as destiny. Men are born to work, women to have lots of babies. Europeans are inherently superior thanks to a mix of breeding and education.
National identity. People are better off sticking to their own, and competition between nations is inevitable and even a constructive force in history.
Politics is everything. There is no aspect of society that is separable from political theory and action, a view that climaxed in totalitarianism, as depicted in George Orwell's novel 1984.

People went along with fascism for a mix of psychological, cynical and idealistic reasons; some non-fascists thought it might be a bulwark against Soviet communism. But, in retrospect, it was inevitable that it would end in war and genocide. The gates of Auschwitz stood in testament to the crimes of fascism.''
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'' So, are there any fascists left?

Given that fascism was so clearly a response to the conditions of the Twenties and Thirties, it’s surprising that it has any purchase today. But bona fide fascism still exist in two forms.
First, what you might call cultists. These people are unafraid to be labelled fascist and might even use the Nazi swastika: they were among the people who marched in Charlottesville, Virginia on August 12, 2017, a march that ended in the death of a counter-protestor. They might join violent organisations, such as the Ku Klux Klan – an anti-black group in the United States – or join fringe parties, such as the British National Party. Many of them have a criminal history. Some have found a home within the so-called alt-Right, a largely online movement that routinely abuses racial minorities and women, and which has been known to appropriate fascist symbols.
The second kind of fascist is the neo-fascist, a label they may well reject either because they don’t want to be associated with the historical fascists or because they earnestly believe they aren’t one. It is important to be careful about applying this label accurately, out of fairness to the target and out of respect for the historical victims of genuine fascism. Nevertheless, there's an old saying: if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
...
Remember that the fascists of the Thirties also adopted policies that could make them appear Left or Right depending on what was necessary to get votes, and the Front National's critics say that the essential appeal of the Front National remains its call to revive Frenchness by excluding foreigners – ie, Muslims.

And it's striking how often battles about the contemporary meaning of fascism revolve around an argument about the past.

The violence in Charlottesville surrounded an attempt to tear down the statue of a Confederate war hero, a statue put up in 1924 at a time when the Klan enjoyed mass membership.

The electable fascism of the future won't look exactly like the fascism of the past, but it will always be tied to its horrifying memory.''

Georgeanna
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna » October 15th, 2018, 7:47 am

Eduk wrote:
October 15th, 2018, 7:04 am
Why did women never have a voice?
Good question.
It is linked to the lack of power and rights. And women weren't the only group affected by the political supremacy. So, perhaps I should say fascism lies at the helm of white males..
It depends on where you look historically, geographically, philosophically...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights

18th and 19th century Europe

Starting in the late 18th century, and throughout the 19th century, rights, as a concept and claim, gained increasing political, social, and philosophical importance in Europe. Movements emerged which demanded freedom of religion, the abolition of slavery, rights for women, rights for those who did not own property, and universal suffrage.[102] In the late 18th century the question of women's rights became central to political debates in both France and Britain. At the time some of the greatest thinkers of the Enlightenment, who defended democratic principles of equality and challenged notions that a privileged few should rule over the vast majority of the population, believed that these principles should be applied only to their own gender and their own race.

The philosopher Jean-Jacques Rousseau, for example, thought that it was the order of nature for woman to obey men. He wrote "Women do wrong to complain of the inequality of man-made laws" and claimed that "when she tries to usurp our rights, she is our inferior".[103]

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In his 1869 essay "The Subjection of Women" the English philosopher and political theorist John Stuart Mill described the situation for women in Britain as follows:

"We are continually told that civilization and Christianity have restored to the woman her just rights. Meanwhile the wife is the actual bondservant of her husband; no less so, as far as the legal obligation goes, than slaves commonly so called."

Then a member of parliament, Mill argued that women deserve the right to vote, though his proposal to replace the term "man" with "person" in the second Reform Bill of 1867 was greeted with laughter in the House of Commons and defeated by 76 to 196 votes. His arguments won little support amongst contemporaries[111] but his attempt to amend the reform bill generated greater attention for the issue of women's suffrage in Britain.[112]

Georgeanna
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna » October 15th, 2018, 8:07 am

I knew there was a reason I didn't take to Rousseau...

Eduk
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Eduk » October 15th, 2018, 9:08 am

So 'a voice' is something only a man (do they have to be white?) can 'give'? Why is this?
Unknown means unknown.

Georgeanna
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna » October 15th, 2018, 9:48 am

Eduk wrote:
October 15th, 2018, 9:08 am
So 'a voice' is something only a man (do they have to be white?) can 'give'? Why is this?
No. Everyone has a voice; it's just that historically some have not been heard, listened to or promoted.
For various reasons...it can't have escaped your notice ?
In any case, the point is that it has been predominantly white males that have been in control for centuries. Well, in my part of the world...
Why ?
Because they could.
The role of religion played and is still playing its part.
So now I can add white, religious males...were the ones who became strong and kept others weak.
The fact that today more and more diverse people are combining, talking and listening to each other is/was changing the balance - and that is where the fightback from hard core traditional extremists begins.
Running scared of losing power...
...they lie to get Their Way; the Only Way, the Truth and the Life.
At any cost.

Fascism. What does it mean to you ?

Eduk
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Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Eduk » October 15th, 2018, 10:03 am

Because they could.
That's what I'm trying to get at really. What gives them this power, happenstance? Is this their fault? Or are they simply riding the 'faults' of others (because they can)?
All I'm suggesting is that there is enough blame to spread around a little bit. Not sure on the exact percentages, which is why I'm asking.
The role of religion played and is still playing its part.
I don't see religion as being special in anyway. For example if you believe God will look after you or if you believe Mussolini will look after you, for me, it's the same basic kind of belief.

Fascism to me means abdicating responsibility (which is kind of what I'm partially accusing you of when you blame 'white men' for all the evils of this world). It also seems generally to involve an in crowd and an out crowd (again partially what I am accusing you).

Not accusing you of being a fascist by the way. But you can maybe see how people come to be fascists.
Unknown means unknown.

Georgeanna
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Joined: October 29th, 2017, 1:17 pm

Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna » October 15th, 2018, 10:27 am

Where did I blame white men for all the evils of this world ?
Talk about 'slippery slopes' !

How does fascism mean abdicating responsibility ?

Georgeanna
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna » October 15th, 2018, 10:30 am

Oh and religion is the biggie, you better believe it !
It's not about being looked after. It's about being controlled.

Eduk
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Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Eduk » October 15th, 2018, 10:56 am

Where did I blame white men for all the evils of this world ?
Talk about 'slippery slopes' !
You said the world is going to hell because of angry men. I'm sorry for exaggerating your claim. Not a slippery slope though.
How does fascism mean abdicating responsibility
I explained already. You declare Mussolini (or other dictator) to be an infallible God who only works in your best interests and then you don't need to think anymore.
Oh and religion is the biggie, you better believe it !
I better believe it? That's not a great argument. Show me a belief unique to religion?
Unknown means unknown.

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