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Qualia as a function of being alive

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Belindi
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Re: Qualia as a function of being alive

Post by Belindi » January 19th, 2019, 7:19 am

Are responses to phenomena a matter of degree or a matter of kind?

If the former then an intelligent robot is more like an uncreative ant and less like a fully cognitive man.

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Re: Qualia as a function of being alive

Post by Greta » January 20th, 2019, 4:10 am

Belindi wrote:
January 19th, 2019, 7:19 am
Are responses to phenomena a matter of degree or a matter of kind?

If the former then an intelligent robot is more like an uncreative ant and less like a fully cognitive man.
Responsiveness may be greater or less, faster or slower, more or less complex (flexible, adaptive). First, though, must be sensing.

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Re: Qualia as a function of being alive

Post by meaningful_products » January 26th, 2019, 5:39 am

Intellectual_Savnot wrote:
January 5th, 2019, 6:11 pm
This will probably be my last comment on this discussion: The conscious that experiences qualia has no proven location in our physical location. The mind is the only place where the qualia experienced by the conscious entity seems to be observed and directly accessed, evidenced through brain waves. Whether the mind came first or not (which I do believe it did not), it is the only known receptor of this experience and the data it provides. There can be scientific proof that qualia is invented through metabolism because food can be read by the tongue where a signal is sent to the mind, and somewhere in that chain we experience qualia as taste. This is similar to photonic readings in the retina. It is possible that qualia is produced in
its respective locations, the retina, tongue, nerves. But if qualia is indeed only produced and simultaneously experienced as it is read by the mind then this is all void.
Have a happy un-birthday!
A lot of people here point out the paradox relating to the original post that consciousness does not exist physically in a sense but at the same time we recognize it and talk about it. I am not sure if a question is posed or what direction the original post was meant to take.

To say that consciousness is not a physical, tangible thing and more similar to the digestive tract is an interesting idea but I do not think it would define "consciousness" in it's broadest scope. Consciousness might change in the afterlife or before birth, which means that we are only considering the time span between our first impressions at birth and the present. Sure, on can say that you cant prove that a physical consciousness could exist before birth or after death, but at the same time its very hard to prove the contrary.

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Re: Qualia as a function of being alive

Post by Intellectual_Savnot » February 1st, 2019, 2:55 pm

As it turns out I must make two more comments to this thread, both to Greta. Now, first I would like to comment unrelated that we seem to have never agreed on a single topic yet. Relating to this thread, you seem to be in the understanding that I am convinced that the mind is responsible for experience of qualia as we consciously experience it, this is not true. I have not read all the recent posts, I have an assignment to work on, but I can state either way that we cannot certainly reach the conclusion that qualia is metabolised without direct evidence. This would be a sublogical decision. However, it is quite possible. I must further proclaim that whether or not qualia is physical or some non-scientifically accessible metaphysical essence is all important to your argument's form but not its validity. Further than my two points it may be concluded that if qualia is indeed an essence whose nature is of the physical body, or metabolized, that the brain is left with the function not to experience but rather to systematically remember, decide, act, and improve upon sensory index. This would make the brain the ultimate intelligence, for intellect may grow by itself. A computer such as the here described brain would be that capable of formulations that systematically self improve based on the input received, whether that be from the qualia that is metabolized or from sensory inputs. This would be the AI that is not self conscious, but fully aware minus the conscious understanding. If the brain as described here could be summed up in lines of code, this code would make itself longer as it is introduced to new environments, until it is the ultimately compatible and self-situated entity that it could possibly be. This is much like our brain, improving by an evolutionarily tuned or consciously active methods and sub-consciously self improving and re-indexing during sleep. This makes your theory highly possible but still is not provable by any means. I do however, to be perfectly blunt, find the theory completely stupid and not worth considering. But you got me. I considered it. Have a good day!
p.s. I just got a "hol' up" moment, thinking about the title. I might be taking this the wrong way. I am going to give it a minute more of thought and I might type some more or I will come to conclusive logical satisfaction.
Okay, okee okay. It seems to me that you consider the body a moving, considering entity of its own being, with all strata of our existence as differing entities being described completely in our human physical realm. In this interpretation the very movement of our body is felt by and influences the different strata of our existence, and in some cases vice versa.
I like to, but cannot prove such, consider the body as a chemical compilation, connected loosely through the mind to a consciousness and mind, which are connected to a will and a soul and such. I do not prefer this interpretation, but I find it that which I usually consider the probable basis for our best-case scenario as existing beings. Skeet ya later....

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Re: Qualia as a function of being alive

Post by Greta » February 1st, 2019, 5:03 pm

Intellectual_Savnot wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 2:55 pm
As it turns out I must make two more comments to this thread, both to Greta. Now, first I would like to comment unrelated that we seem to have never agreed on a single topic yet.
I assume that you have been lurking ad quietly thinking, "Nah, she's full of it" as I don't remember debating you about anything.

Note that, being high functioning autistic, I cannot properly read posts that lack paragraph breaks. For me, trying to read your post is like trying to pick out words in a lingual version of Where's Wally. it's not worth the pain. So I will just address the start and end, which are more approachable for overclocked minds than amorphous blocks of blurred greyness posing as text :)

Intellectual_Savnot wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 2:55 pm
I like to, but cannot prove such, consider the body as a chemical compilation, connected loosely through the mind to a consciousness and mind, which are connected to a will and a soul and such. I do not prefer this interpretation, but I find it that which I usually consider the probable basis for our best-case scenario as existing beings. Skeet ya later....
I see the qualia (which is actually not the mind as such, rather pre-mind or sub-mind - raw processing that the brain shapes into mentality) as more as an emanation of the body. The idea of qualia being a separate thing "connected loosely" to the body is not naturalistic.

So far, qualia-from-the-metabolism still looks to me more promising than other ideas, much more in accordance with how nature works than "brain first" notions. If qualia was only created by tightly integrated processing (as in the brain) then surely the incredible degree of processing done by now would have thrown up anomalous, unexplained qualia-affected results in technology, suggestive of a mind in action.

Yet, as far as I know, there has been no such thing. After trillions of experiments and connections being made in technology there has not been even a single anomalous instance suggestive that we have been creating qualia. Not once, not ever. We may have done and don't realise it, but it doesn't appear to be that way.

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Re: Qualia as a function of being alive

Post by Belindi » February 2nd, 2019, 9:53 am

Greta wrote:
Note that, being high functioning autistic, I cannot properly read posts that lack paragraph breaks. For me, trying to read your post is like trying to pick out words in a lingual version of Where's Wally. it's not worth the pain. So I will just address the start and end, which are more approachable for overclocked minds than amorphous blocks of blurred greyness posing as text :)
Same here :) As for the last sentence, You have more patience than I, Greta.

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Re: Qualia as a function of being alive

Post by JamesOfSeattle » February 6th, 2019, 12:06 am

Greta wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 5:03 pm
If qualia was only created by tightly integrated processing (as in the brain) then surely the incredible degree of processing done by now would have thrown up anomalous, unexplained qualia-affected results in technology, suggestive of a mind in action.

Yet, as far as I know, there has been no such thing. After trillions of experiments and connections being made in technology there has not been even a single anomalous instance suggestive that we have been creating qualia. Not once, not ever. We may have done and don't realise it, but it doesn't appear to be that way.
This is an interesting idea. What would you look for if you wanted to see a “qualia-affected result”? What would you look for in a human? The only evidence we currently have of “qualia” are verbal reports.

Just wondering.

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Re: Qualia as a function of being alive

Post by Greta » February 6th, 2019, 1:09 am

JamesOfSeattle wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 12:06 am
Greta wrote:
February 1st, 2019, 5:03 pm
If qualia was only created by tightly integrated processing (as in the brain) then surely the incredible degree of processing done by now would have thrown up anomalous, unexplained qualia-affected results in technology, suggestive of a mind in action.

Yet, as far as I know, there has been no such thing. After trillions of experiments and connections being made in technology there has not been even a single anomalous instance suggestive that we have been creating qualia. Not once, not ever. We may have done and don't realise it, but it doesn't appear to be that way.
This is an interesting idea. What would you look for if you wanted to see a “qualia-affected result”? What would you look for in a human? The only evidence we currently have of “qualia” are verbal reports.

Just wondering.
It's the old bugaboo - how would you know if a Turing machine is sentient or just an accurate mimic? Some would say that the reliability of Murphy's photocopier is inversely proportional to operator anxiety, but that's user bumbling, not machine vindictiveness :)

Basically, I guess we'd have to look for anomalies - hard-to-explain oddities.

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Re: Qualia as a function of being alive

Post by JamesOfSeattle » February 6th, 2019, 1:29 am

Greta wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 1:09 am
Basically, I guess we'd have to look for anomalies - hard-to-explain oddities.
Alternatively, you could hypothesize a situation that would lead to reports of qualia, and then look for those sorts of situations in other places, including places where a report would be impossible. To test the hypothesis you would want to manipulate the hypothesized situation and observe the effect on the reports, but that would be difficult and usually unethical in humans. An alternative test would be to create the same situation artificially, but include the same ability to report as in humans, and then do the manipulations and observe the results. Easier said ...

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Re: Qualia as a function of being alive

Post by Greta » February 6th, 2019, 5:42 am

JamesOfSeattle wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 1:29 am
Greta wrote:
February 6th, 2019, 1:09 am
Basically, I guess we'd have to look for anomalies - hard-to-explain oddities.
Alternatively, you could hypothesize a situation that would lead to reports of qualia ...
That has the same problem, doesn't it? Every time you will still end up wondering if the response was a quale or a reflex, or if they are indeed different.

Still, when it comes to humans, researchers can at least correlate processing with patterns of neural activity. We can also switch off conscious awareness via the claustrum. In that we way we can compare unconscious processing with conscious processing when presented with the same stimuli, such as temperature changes, sounds/music, breezes and touching. I'm clearly no expert in brain studies but you'd expect that such experiments had probably already been done.

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