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Could everything have existed forever?

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Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Could everything have existed forever?

Post by Karpel Tunnel » March 14th, 2019, 10:30 am

Felix wrote:
March 13th, 2019, 10:17 pm
RJG said: "It seems logically, that we can only combine, convert, transform the existing (already created) stuff into only different shapes and forms, using the same old tired ingredients. There is never really anything "new", or any real "creating" going on whatsoever, anywhere! There is only just the mixing (re-configuring) of the stuff we've already got, that's all."
We don't know. It is fairly recent history on earth that human brains sere created with all those emergent properties. Perhaps new kinds of matter or really phenomena will be created in the future, but humans or AIs or by who knows what. We don't know how malleable 'stuff' is. We don't know if new stuff can be made and rearranging stuff seems to do rather remarkably new stuff in and of itself.
Who is the "we" in that sentence, human beings? Obviously our creative capacity is limited, e.g., we cannot create a universe.
Not yet.

Furthermore, I don't know why one would expect the universe to conform to the dictates of human logic.
Universes and things are not logical, statements as parts of arguments are or are not. It's a category error to say the moon is logical or gravity is. The universe is. Logic is about drawing conclusions from what we think is the case in language. The universe is not logical, it is. It's not illogical either. It just is.

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Plaffelvohfen
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Re: Could everything have existed forever?

Post by Plaffelvohfen » March 14th, 2019, 11:18 am

RJG wrote:
March 14th, 2019, 7:37 am
RJG wrote:Though I'm still struggling with how it is even logically possible to "create" anything in the first place, ...in the literal sense.
Plaffelvohfen wrote:To me, it kind of makes sense that it would be illogical because Logic itself cannot exist in a "non-expressed time-state", which would be a necessary state of non-created existing things... In this "non-expressed Time-state", always and never are the same.
Sorry, I don't get what you're saying here.
It relates to my first comment on this thread where I tried to explain Time as a dimension (like depth) and how as such, it always existed... It's a view influenced by the Many-worlds interpretation of Quantum Mechanics... I conjugate the term "expressed" here, a bit like gene expression in biology... Timelessness here, would mean a state of being, where Time is non-expressed (or static, stopped)... And I'm pointing out that Logic, is contingent on Time being expressed...
RJG wrote:
March 14th, 2019, 7:37 am
Plaffelvohfen wrote:As an absurdist, I accept that there's a intrinsic limit to our ability to understand certain phenomenon/concepts that may or may not, exist outside our own universe…
Agreed. Also, "absurdist" seems to be an interesting title to call oneself. I suspect there is more here than meets the eye with this "absurdist".
I suspect you are right in assuming this... I may have to elaborate but I'm not sure this thread is the right place to do so... ;)

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Felix
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Re: Could everything have existed forever?

Post by Felix » March 14th, 2019, 4:51 pm

RJG: Are you somehow implying that "new" matter magically comes into existence (from non-existence?) with the birth of living organisms? If so, then do you also denounce the first law of thermodynamics?
I don't think the Universe (capital U) is composed solely of gross matter (i.e, what we can apprehend via our senses), so there would be more to creation than simply rearranging or transforming it. I was responding to your comment that there is "nothing new under the sun." Under a different sun, a different universe (small u), there could be.

If by creation you mean "creating something from nothing," I agree that is a nonsensical concept. I would expand the definition of "create" to mean producing order from disorder, so in that sense the new order created - or the new creation ordered - would be the foundation for something(s) unique.
RJG: If we humans wish to "make sense", then 'logic' is the only tool we've got.
I think not, there are other means of perception.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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