The March Philosophy Book of the Month is Final Notice by Van Fleisher. Discuss Final Notice now.

The April Philosophy Book of the Month is The Unbound Soul by Richard L. Haight. Discuss The Unbound Soul Now

The May Philosophy Book of the Month is Misreading Judas by Robert Wahler.

Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Use this philosophy forum to discuss and debate general philosophy topics that don't fit into one of the other categories.

This forum is NOT for factual, informational or scientific questions about philosophy (e.g. "What year was Socrates born?"); such homework-help-style questions can be asked and answered on PhiloPedia: The Philosophy Wiki. If your question is not already answered on the appropriate PhiloPedia page, then see How to Request Content on PhiloPedia to see how to ask your informational question using the wiki.
User avatar
Empiricist-Bruno
Moderator
Posts: 371
Joined: July 15th, 2014, 1:52 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Berkeley
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Empiricist-Bruno » May 15th, 2019, 2:47 pm

So a person can self identify to a gender other then the one in which they physically appear to others at birth.

A person can also look at an apple and call it an orange.
One possible reason for doing this may be to create a breakdown in one's communication with others as others see it differently.

But there is the issue of respecting the choice of language of the other. If in your view, it is best to call an orange as an apple, no one should blame you for it as it only makes you appear mentally challenged.

So accepting that people have the choice to self identify to any gender is in fact, respecting the rights of people to display signs of mental illness.

And yet, this apparent illness does not exist in the eyes of the person having it. It is only an illness that exist in the imaginary world view of people having a different outlook than those who believe that gender self identification is arbitrary.

This is why there is no cure for this; it is an imaginary illness. It is only a concept, there to help make sense of a world view that exists and yet deserves to be rejected. Since rejecting a concept of illness existing in a person in one's imagination makes no sense, anyone can live at peace with any person who believes gender self identification is a choice.

People who do not believe gender self identification is a choice must be careful not to project their concept of mental illness onto any real trans gender person. I think this how to care for one another in a healthy way and with politeness. Does this strikes to the heart of the matter here? Should we educate young people with such concepts, why not? Peace
I am a frog. I choose to be a frog. I make big leaps.

User avatar
Antonio Terra
New Trial Member
Posts: 3
Joined: April 16th, 2019, 8:44 pm

Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Antonio Terra » May 15th, 2019, 4:07 pm

Well, if someone said that he is Napoleon Bonaparte, you would consider him crazy wouldn't you? We can (and should) treat trangender people with respect, but no one should be forced to treat it as normal.

User avatar
h_k_s
Posts: 333
Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by h_k_s » May 15th, 2019, 5:57 pm

Empiricist-Bruno wrote:
May 15th, 2019, 2:47 pm
So a person can self identify to a gender other then the one in which they physically appear to others at birth.

A person can also look at an apple and call it an orange.
One possible reason for doing this may be to create a breakdown in one's communication with others as others see it differently.

But there is the issue of respecting the choice of language of the other. If in your view, it is best to call an orange as an apple, no one should blame you for it as it only makes you appear mentally challenged.

So accepting that people have the choice to self identify to any gender is in fact, respecting the rights of people to display signs of mental illness.

And yet, this apparent illness does not exist in the eyes of the person having it. It is only an illness that exist in the imaginary world view of people having a different outlook than those who believe that gender self identification is arbitrary.

This is why there is no cure for this; it is an imaginary illness. It is only a concept, there to help make sense of a world view that exists and yet deserves to be rejected. Since rejecting a concept of illness existing in a person in one's imagination makes no sense, anyone can live at peace with any person who believes gender self identification is a choice.

People who do not believe gender self identification is a choice must be careful not to project their concept of mental illness onto any real trans gender person. I think this how to care for one another in a healthy way and with politeness. Does this strikes to the heart of the matter here? Should we educate young people with such concepts, why not? Peace
There are two young males in our neighborhood here that have that issue. One is adolescent and the other is preteen. They are neighbors.

Seems like the issue has always been around. In my high school I remember 2 boys and 4 girls that tended to cross dress.

Turns out 2 of the girls were hermaphroditic -- girls bodies but biologically male. Found that out at the high school reunion 40 years later.

So it is not a new issue. It is just getting more publicity these days.

User avatar
h_k_s
Posts: 333
Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by h_k_s » May 15th, 2019, 6:00 pm

Empiricist-Bruno wrote:
May 15th, 2019, 2:47 pm
So a person can self identify to a gender other then the one in which they physically appear to others at birth.

A person can also look at an apple and call it an orange.
One possible reason for doing this may be to create a breakdown in one's communication with others as others see it differently.

But there is the issue of respecting the choice of language of the other. If in your view, it is best to call an orange as an apple, no one should blame you for it as it only makes you appear mentally challenged.

So accepting that people have the choice to self identify to any gender is in fact, respecting the rights of people to display signs of mental illness.

And yet, this apparent illness does not exist in the eyes of the person having it. It is only an illness that exist in the imaginary world view of people having a different outlook than those who believe that gender self identification is arbitrary.

This is why there is no cure for this; it is an imaginary illness. It is only a concept, there to help make sense of a world view that exists and yet deserves to be rejected. Since rejecting a concept of illness existing in a person in one's imagination makes no sense, anyone can live at peace with any person who believes gender self identification is a choice.

People who do not believe gender self identification is a choice must be careful not to project their concept of mental illness onto any real trans gender person. I think this how to care for one another in a healthy way and with politeness. Does this strikes to the heart of the matter here? Should we educate young people with such concepts, why not? Peace
We are going to need more boxes to check on those forms that ask about this:

o Male only
o Male trans to female
o Female only
o Female trans to male
o Don't know

User avatar
Count Lucanor
Posts: 439
Joined: May 6th, 2017, 5:08 pm

Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Count Lucanor » May 15th, 2019, 10:27 pm

Empiricist-Bruno wrote:
May 15th, 2019, 2:47 pm
So a person can self identify to a gender other then the one in which they physically appear to others at birth.

A person can also look at an apple and call it an orange.
One possible reason for doing this may be to create a breakdown in one's communication with others as others see it differently.

But there is the issue of respecting the choice of language of the other. If in your view, it is best to call an orange as an apple, no one should blame you for it as it only makes you appear mentally challenged.

So accepting that people have the choice to self identify to any gender is in fact, respecting the rights of people to display signs of mental illness.

And yet, this apparent illness does not exist in the eyes of the person having it. It is only an illness that exist in the imaginary world view of people having a different outlook than those who believe that gender self identification is arbitrary.

This is why there is no cure for this; it is an imaginary illness. It is only a concept, there to help make sense of a world view that exists and yet deserves to be rejected. Since rejecting a concept of illness existing in a person in one's imagination makes no sense, anyone can live at peace with any person who believes gender self identification is a choice.

People who do not believe gender self identification is a choice must be careful not to project their concept of mental illness onto any real trans gender person. I think this how to care for one another in a healthy way and with politeness. Does this strikes to the heart of the matter here? Should we educate young people with such concepts, why not? Peace
For gender theorists, of course, things are not that simple as oranges and apples. The first thing they will tell you is that what most people think is the normal distinction between two genders based on a biological binary is actually a cultural construction, a false ideology put on people's minds by the prevailing social powers in history. An ideology that has been imposed as a norm very effectively by means of control of language and discourse. Being "crazy" then, just has meant always being "queer", being outside the norm. The history of mental institutions is the history of the treatment of these social deviations, not of physical or mental dysfunctions. For gender theory, there are no male/female binaries, like oranges and apples, but a fluid and diverse spectrum of gender states, to which every individual commits to in a given time, and which can change just as easily. It just happens that when people are born, society, by means of the doctor which assists at birth, proclaims the new born to be "male" or "female" and then society proceeds to indoctrinate children to perform these roles.

I don't believe in any of this crap, but that's in general the gender theory approach.

User avatar
Felix
Posts: 2210
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Felix » May 16th, 2019, 2:29 am

Empiricist-Bruno: "So accepting that people have the choice to self identify to any gender is in fact, respecting the rights of people to display signs of mental illness."

I would not categorize this inclination as a mental illness any more than I would categorize homosexuality as one, because I suspect there is a biological/hormonal basis for someone believing their physical sexual identity is a delusion.

Empiricist-Bruno: "And yet, this apparent illness does not exist in the eyes of the person having it."

Mental illness never does. One must first admit one has a deficiency before one can overcome it. For example, one might not suffering occasional bouts of habromania, which is a form of insanity that features cheerful delusions. One might very well prefer it to a form of sanity that features depressing insights.

Count Lucanor: "It just happens that when people are born, society, by means of the doctor which assists at birth, proclaims the new born to be "male" or "female" and then society proceeds to indoctrinate children to perform these roles."

I think you are giving cultural influence far more weight than it merits, surely biology has a lot to do with whether one is attracted to men or women. If it didn't, I doubt that we'd have a problem with overpopulation.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

User avatar
Mark1955
Posts: 567
Joined: July 21st, 2015, 4:02 am
Favorite Philosopher: David Hume
Location: Nottingham, England.

Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Mark1955 » May 16th, 2019, 3:27 am

h_k_s wrote:
May 15th, 2019, 6:00 pm
We are going to need more boxes to check on those forms that ask about this:

o Male only
o Male trans to female
o Female only
o Female trans to male
o Don't know
Or we could try getting rid of the boxes and treating people as individuals not catagories
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.

Sculptor1
Posts: 34
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Sculptor1 » May 16th, 2019, 5:43 am

"Mentally Ill" is a relative and subjective attribution.
In the Soviet Union it was thought acceptable that dissident views flying against the prevailing "communist" ideology were deemed as mental illness. And that was a matter of choice. Gender identification is not a choice, but impelled by natural forces. I did not chose to be a heterosexual male, and in discovering my sexual self as a teenager was forced to align myself with the closest socially defined position.

The only way I can see that the issue of mental illness could enter such a topic is when we force a person to accept a gender identification that does not fit, or the person is unhappy with.
When we used to force homosexuals to be straight the consequences were often mental illness as in the case of Alan Turing who represents the tip of a great iceburg of societal abuse and oppression.

User avatar
h_k_s
Posts: 333
Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by h_k_s » May 16th, 2019, 4:18 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
May 16th, 2019, 5:43 am
"Mentally Ill" is a relative and subjective attribution.
In the Soviet Union it was thought acceptable that dissident views flying against the prevailing "communist" ideology were deemed as mental illness. And that was a matter of choice. Gender identification is not a choice, but impelled by natural forces. I did not chose to be a heterosexual male, and in discovering my sexual self as a teenager was forced to align myself with the closest socially defined position.

The only way I can see that the issue of mental illness could enter such a topic is when we force a person to accept a gender identification that does not fit, or the person is unhappy with.
When we used to force homosexuals to be straight the consequences were often mental illness as in the case of Alan Turing who represents the tip of a great iceburg of societal abuse and oppression.
From ancient history I would guess that we become what we are taught to be by our peers and parents.

For example, there was rampant bisexuality among the ancient Greeks. Herodotus mentions this.

And there was rampant pedophilia among the ancient Romans. Marcus Aurelius mentions this.

Once Christianity took over Europe and Asia Minor, these ancient indulgences were eradicated.

However male and female homosexuality during Christian times is undocumented in terms of prevalence. It is still undocumented in terms of cause. We still don't know if you are born a certain way or if you become that way through external factors.

It is politically correct to say you are born that way. But as yet there is no certain evidence one way or the other.

Just anecdotal testimony.

Sculptor1
Posts: 34
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Sculptor1 » May 16th, 2019, 4:26 pm

h_k_s wrote:
May 16th, 2019, 4:18 pm
We still don't know if you are born a certain way or if you become that way through external factors.
I disagree. No one would chose to be gay and voluntarily place themselves at the mercy of bullies and jokers.
I've met plenty of gay people of both sexes and for all of them the occasion of coming-out was always traumatic. For them it mattered not whether their gayness was determined before birth, at birth, or shortly after. What they all agree upon is that they had no choice whatever.
I shall assume you are heterosexual.
Did you chose to be heterosexual? I did not. One day I woke up thinking about breasts, and the wonderful curves of the female form. The very sight or thought of female nudity caused by body to react with an erection. I had no control over this, except to try and think about other things. Conversations with gay men render similar experiences, except they were attracted to other men.
I wonder if you stopped and thought about that time in your own adolescence that you would also agree that you had no choice about your sexual orientation.

User avatar
Felix
Posts: 2210
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Felix » May 16th, 2019, 10:36 pm

Yes, I agree, Sculptor1, it was certainly not social indoctrination that ingrained hetersexual tendencies in me, that to me is the height of pop psychology.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

User avatar
h_k_s
Posts: 333
Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by h_k_s » May 17th, 2019, 2:19 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
May 16th, 2019, 4:26 pm
h_k_s wrote:
May 16th, 2019, 4:18 pm
We still don't know if you are born a certain way or if you become that way through external factors.
I disagree. No one would chose to be gay and voluntarily place themselves at the mercy of bullies and jokers.
I've met plenty of gay people of both sexes and for all of them the occasion of coming-out was always traumatic. For them it mattered not whether their gayness was determined before birth, at birth, or shortly after. What they all agree upon is that they had no choice whatever.
I shall assume you are heterosexual.
Did you chose to be heterosexual? I did not. One day I woke up thinking about breasts, and the wonderful curves of the female form. The very sight or thought of female nudity caused by body to react with an erection. I had no control over this, except to try and think about other things. Conversations with gay men render similar experiences, except they were attracted to other men.
I wonder if you stopped and thought about that time in your own adolescence that you would also agree that you had no choice about your sexual orientation.
If you simply keep repeating yourself then according to Aristotle this is a fallacy of vociferousness. The Sophists used it a lot at trials in the Agora of Athens.

User avatar
h_k_s
Posts: 333
Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by h_k_s » May 17th, 2019, 2:22 pm

Felix wrote:
May 16th, 2019, 10:36 pm
Yes, I agree, Sculptor1, it was certainly not social indoctrination that ingrained hetersexual tendencies in me, that to me is the height of pop psychology.
I believe some kind of university research study in great depth with lots of contributors/subjects is warranted on the subject.

Anything less is simply anecdotal. And anecdote is another one of Aristotle's fallacies.

User avatar
Felix
Posts: 2210
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by Felix » May 17th, 2019, 3:12 pm

h_k_s, Do you really need a university study to tell you why most men are sexually attracted to woman and vice versa? Common sense can answer that question.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

User avatar
h_k_s
Posts: 333
Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: Gender self identification, a mentally ill concept?

Post by h_k_s » May 18th, 2019, 11:12 am

Felix wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 3:12 pm
h_k_s, Do you really need a university study to tell you why most men are sexually attracted to woman and vice versa? Common sense can answer that question.
I really do need a university study for just about everything, yes.

This is called science.

It is unlike anecdote in that a study draws from a large sample size of a whole population and as such becomes statistically more sound.

Your own anecdote and emotional appeals sound very Sophist. Plato hated the Sophists. Aristotle hated them even more and explained logically why their methods were unsound. Unsound.

Be careful that you don't let yourself become Sophist for personal reasons or otherwise.

Post Reply