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Was Hitler actually wrong?

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Binyamin7
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Was Hitler actually wrong?

Post by Binyamin7 » June 2nd, 2019, 1:05 pm

Was he immoral as a matter of fact? Or were his actions just distasteful and had he won the war he would rightly be considered right then?

Is morality subjective or objective in the case of Hitler?

If we say it is objective, then we have a specific moral law that exists in our plane of existence that would seem difficult to explain as an evolutionary trait. A set law implies a Lawgiver.

If we say it is subjective, we have a big problem on our hands. Hitler wasn't actually wrong? So a mass murderer or a pedophile is just distasteful but not a morally corrupt objectively wrong criminal? Can anyone really say that and believe it?

So here we have a dilemma that makes strong suggestions to us I think if we are honest.

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Felix
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Re: Was Hitler actually wrong?

Post by Felix » June 3rd, 2019, 6:56 pm

"So here we have a dilemma"

No dilemma, you've heard of insanity?
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Binyamin7
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Re: Was Hitler actually wrong?

Post by Binyamin7 » June 3rd, 2019, 9:32 pm

You are suggesting Hitler was insane? Okay fine. But were his acts objectively immoral?

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h_k_s
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Re: Was Hitler actually wrong?

Post by h_k_s » June 4th, 2019, 3:30 pm

Binyamin7 wrote:
June 2nd, 2019, 1:05 pm
Was he immoral as a matter of fact? Or were his actions just distasteful and had he won the war he would rightly be considered right then?

Is morality subjective or objective in the case of Hitler?

If we say it is objective, then we have a specific moral law that exists in our plane of existence that would seem difficult to explain as an evolutionary trait. A set law implies a Lawgiver.

If we say it is subjective, we have a big problem on our hands. Hitler wasn't actually wrong? So a mass murderer or a pedophile is just distasteful but not a morally corrupt objectively wrong criminal? Can anyone really say that and believe it?

So here we have a dilemma that makes strong suggestions to us I think if we are honest.
Is morality subjective or objective, period?

The modernists and post-post-modernists would say it is strictly objective.

The post-modernists, Sophists, and Skeptics say it is subjective.

Take your pick.

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h_k_s
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Re: Was Hitler actually wrong?

Post by h_k_s » June 4th, 2019, 3:32 pm

Felix wrote:
June 3rd, 2019, 6:56 pm
"So here we have a dilemma"

No dilemma, you've heard of insanity?
Calling Adolf insane is like calling Trump insane.

Both just played to their audience.

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Logicnotpassion
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Re: Was Hitler actually wrong?

Post by Logicnotpassion » June 5th, 2019, 12:54 am

According to the three imperatives of Kant on moral law, he was plain wrong.

During the Nuremberg trial, none of the accused stood up and said "I am proud of what we did!" . They knew they were condemned to death, so they could have. But none of them did. On the contrary, there was repent expressed. They knew what they did was morally wrong, even in their own eyes.

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Re: Was Hitler actually wrong?

Post by h_k_s » June 6th, 2019, 10:43 am

Logicnotpassion wrote:
June 5th, 2019, 12:54 am
According to the three imperatives of Kant on moral law, he was plain wrong.

During the Nuremberg trial, none of the accused stood up and said "I am proud of what we did!" . They knew they were condemned to death, so they could have. But none of them did. On the contrary, there was repent expressed. They knew what they did was morally wrong, even in their own eyes.
Immanuel Kant is one of my favorite philosophers.

I wish you had listed his 3 imperatives.

I like this forum because I learn a lot about philosophy and about philosophers here.

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h_k_s
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Re: Was Hitler actually wrong?

Post by h_k_s » June 6th, 2019, 10:53 am

Logicnotpassion wrote:
June 5th, 2019, 12:54 am
According to the three imperatives of Kant on moral law, he was plain wrong.

During the Nuremberg trial, none of the accused stood up and said "I am proud of what we did!" . They knew they were condemned to death, so they could have. But none of them did. On the contrary, there was repent expressed. They knew what they did was morally wrong, even in their own eyes.
The Nazi dictatorship in Germany all turned on the absence of any armed resistance.

The Germans themselves did not resist Adolf and his regime. In fact they welcomed it. And after Aldolf's Wehrmacht conquered France then the Germans worshipped Adolf like a god. Adolf alone had redeemed Germany from the injustices of the WW1 armistice.

The Jews did not resist Adolf either. They had no idea of what was coming. They could not believe it could be as bad as it was going to become.

Armed resistance is the only way to ensure your rights and liberties. This is why the American Constitution at the Federal level has a 2nd Amendment. If a Hitler arose in the USA, then at the very least, all 50 States, or most of them, would revolt in armed reprisal. It would be another civil war, but at the very least, this is what would happen.

Abraham Lincoln won the last U.S. Civil War, thanks mostly to the Generals Sherman and Grant. Whether the seceding States would win or lose the next one has yet to be seen, if it came to that.

Europeans don't have the stomach for civil war. That's why Adolf succeeded (for a while).

Was Adolf good or evil? The Germans of his day loved him whether he was good or evil or neither.

Adolf bit off more than he could chew when he attacked Russia however. And the last nail in his coffin was when he declared war on the USA for declaring war on Japan. Dumb is dumb. And stupid is stupid. Adolf was a military strategic idiot.

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Re: Was Hitler actually wrong?

Post by Sculptor1 » June 7th, 2019, 5:16 pm

I heard it all too many times. Hitler was insane.
This is a massive cop-out and a way of pretending that what he did is not longer happening, or could never happen again.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Hitler was not insane. Distasteful, yes. Even inexcusable. But Hitler and his cronies knew exactly what they were doing, and were perfectly conscious of the harm they caused millions of people.
What is remarkable is how the German high command managed to live with the knowledge of their actions. And it is a lesson about the people will allow to govern us, and in our name commit atrocities as we do year by year all over the world.

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Re: Was Hitler actually wrong?

Post by Sculptor1 » June 7th, 2019, 5:19 pm

h_k_s wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 10:53 am
Armed resistance is the only way to ensure your rights and liberties. This is why the American Constitution at the Federal level has a 2nd Amendment. If a Hitler arose in the USA, then at the very least, all 50 States, or most of them, would revolt in armed reprisal. It would be another civil war, but at the very least, this is what would happen.
I did not know comedy was your forte.
What about Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Syria, Libya, Iraq? The US presidents have been no different, And the current one has big support amongst the very redneck you think are going to help y'all out come the day!

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h_k_s
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Re: Was Hitler actually wrong?

Post by h_k_s » June 7th, 2019, 8:01 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
June 7th, 2019, 5:19 pm
h_k_s wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 10:53 am
Armed resistance is the only way to ensure your rights and liberties. This is why the American Constitution at the Federal level has a 2nd Amendment. If a Hitler arose in the USA, then at the very least, all 50 States, or most of them, would revolt in armed reprisal. It would be another civil war, but at the very least, this is what would happen.
I did not know comedy was your forte.
What about Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Syria, Libya, Iraq? The US presidents have been no different, And the current one has big support amongst the very redneck you think are going to help y'all out come the day!
@Sculptor1 you seem to be confusing foreign policy with domestic policy.

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Felix
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Re: Was Hitler actually wrong?

Post by Felix » June 7th, 2019, 9:23 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: "Hitler was not insane."

There are various forms and degrees of insanity, it is a not simple diagnosis. To the naive observer, some lunatics appear to be rational.

I stand by my statement, no one who was willing to murder anyone and destroy anything that stood in the way of his desire for world domination can be considered to be of sound mind. In regards to his followers, they would have to be judged on a case by case basis, certainly there were quite a few sadists among them.

h_k_s: "If a Hitler arose in the USA, then at the very least, all 50 States, or most of them, would revolt in armed reprisal."

I wouldn't wager too much on that. Hitler was elected on his promise of national safety and security. To quote Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Sculptor1
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Re: Was Hitler actually wrong?

Post by Sculptor1 » June 9th, 2019, 7:16 am

h_k_s wrote:
June 7th, 2019, 8:01 pm
Sculptor1 wrote:
June 7th, 2019, 5:19 pm


I did not know comedy was your forte.
What about Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Syria, Libya, Iraq? The US presidents have been no different, And the current one has big support amongst the very redneck you think are going to help y'all out come the day!
you seem to be confusing foreign policy with domestic policy.
No.
The problem seems to be that YOU are ignoring foreign policy.

As for Domestic policy you might want to ask yourself why the Trump administration has decided to break up families, leaving American Children from Mexican parents effectively orphans?

You might want to ask how is it that the number of billionaires has doubled in the US since 2008, whilst real dirt poverty has massively increased; life expectancy has fallen and inequality has increased.

Why the victims of rape are now being forced to keep the children of their abusers.

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Sculptor1
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Re: Was Hitler actually wrong?

Post by Sculptor1 » June 9th, 2019, 7:21 am

Felix wrote:
June 7th, 2019, 9:23 pm

I stand by my statement, no one who was willing to murder anyone and destroy anything that stood in the way of his desire for world domination can be considered to be of sound mind.
This is patently false. And a pernicious myth.
The advantage of being a national leader is that you are at arms length from the trouble you cause.
Bill Clinton ordered the death of many Afghans long before 9/11, in an undeclared war. Was he insane?
Millions of Germans willingly followed Hitler into hell.
And what about all those completely same Allied soldiers who killed the enemy with gusto, relish and enjoyment. This is the human condition. Pretending that ordinary responses to extreme conditions are insane is a misunderstanding.
Do you really think that all those people who received medals were insane?

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Re: Was Hitler actually wrong?

Post by h_k_s » June 9th, 2019, 9:42 am

Sculptor1 wrote:
June 9th, 2019, 7:16 am
h_k_s wrote:
June 7th, 2019, 8:01 pm

you seem to be confusing foreign policy with domestic policy.
No.
The problem seems to be that YOU are ignoring foreign policy.

As for Domestic policy you might want to ask yourself why the Trump administration has decided to break up families, leaving American Children from Mexican parents effectively orphans?

You might want to ask how is it that the number of billionaires has doubled in the US since 2008, whilst real dirt poverty has massively increased; life expectancy has fallen and inequality has increased.

Why the victims of rape are now being forced to keep the children of their abusers.
A punitive border policy is what is needed to give teeth to immigration law. I don't think Trump counted on the negative press from the separations however. Same as when he blundered about holding the Federal employees hostage with their pay.

Otherwise, Trump's politics is little different than that of ancient Athens, the home of the original Western philosophers.

Do you ever talk about or think of actual philosophy ?? This is a philosophy forum after all. Not a political forum.

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