The March Philosophy Book of the Month is Final Notice by Van Fleisher. Discuss Final Notice now.

The April Philosophy Book of the Month is The Unbound Soul by Richard L. Haight. Discuss The Unbound Soul Now

The May Philosophy Book of the Month is Misreading Judas by Robert Wahler.

Is Time Just an Idea?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 3576
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by LuckyR » September 13th, 2019, 12:46 am

gater wrote:
September 12th, 2019, 2:58 pm
Sure, his special theory is based on the false assumption that gravity effects time - it doesn't. Im not sure why he thought speed effects time - but this is silly too. Time is a constant - period, nothing effects time. His theories are more science fiction than actual science.
Cuz I said so?
"As usual... it depends."

User avatar
Greta
Site Admin
Posts: 8074
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by Greta » September 13th, 2019, 6:55 pm

This is gater's cue to demonstrate how his hypothesis of unchanging time will allow GPS to work.

As an animal on Earth, I personally feel as though time is a constant and unchanging flow but I have only ever known life in Earth's gravity well.

User avatar
Consul
Posts: 2252
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by Consul » September 13th, 2019, 7:57 pm

Neri wrote:
August 6th, 2019, 9:07 pm
Eternalism refers to the doctrine of Parmenides. It holds that nothing really moves, changes, or happens. In other words, it denies the reality of time and says that only space is real. To Parmenides, the world was a single, impenetrable, and never-changing geometric object. This is sometimes called a block universe. We see this same idea in Einstein’s space/time, wherein time is reduced to an anisotropic space coordinate. McTaggart’s B series describes this view of time.
Your description of eternalism is incorrect! For it is false that "it holds that nothing really moves, changes, or happens," and that "it denies the reality of time and says that only space is real." The temporal dimension is as real as the three spatial dimensions, and there really is motion and change in the block universe: Things move by having different spatial locations/positions at different times, and they change by having different temporal parts with different (accidental) properties.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars

User avatar
Felix
Posts: 2776
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by Felix » September 13th, 2019, 9:39 pm

Re: Studies on the man who has spent more time in space than any other person and on his twin brother on Earth: https://bit.ly/2lqHGUT

"The one big find so far was that my telomeres, basically these things at the end of our chromosomes that shorten with stress and age, actually ended up longer than Mark’s. It’s the opposite of what the scientists expected, given the challenging environment on the ISS, exposure to radiation, etc. I was already six minutes younger than Mark but, as Einstein predicted, I’ve come back six minutes and 13 milliseconds younger after a year in space."

Woah, 13 milliseconds, that's got to be worth the many health benefits he describes in that article!

"It’s a six- to eight-month recovery. Then there’s things you can’t feel: bone loss, muscle loss, structural changes in my eyes. The effects of radiation at a genetic level – I don’t know what they’ll be."
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

User avatar
gater
New Trial Member
Posts: 14
Joined: September 6th, 2019, 12:02 am

Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by gater » September 14th, 2019, 11:24 pm

Greta wrote:
September 13th, 2019, 6:55 pm
This is gater's cue to demonstrate how his hypothesis of unchanging time will allow GPS to work.

As an animal on Earth, I personally feel as though time is a constant and unchanging flow but I have only ever known life in Earth's gravity well.
A GPS device is matter - gravity effects matter - by using time dilation, which accounts for the gravitational effects on the GPS device, it can give more accurate readings.

User avatar
Greta
Site Admin
Posts: 8074
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by Greta » September 15th, 2019, 7:00 pm

In that case you had better tell NASA, gater. Fame and fortune awaits you for the greatest breakthrough in physics since Newton.

User avatar
gater
New Trial Member
Posts: 14
Joined: September 6th, 2019, 12:02 am

Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by gater » September 17th, 2019, 11:48 am

For understanding the Universe? Honestly -I feel like its my duty to explain the Universe to the world - there is so much misunderstanding in the Scientific community. They base their beliefs on Einsteins theories - Einstein did not understand time, space, or gravity.

The Universe is simple - time and space are infinite, and time is a constant.

User avatar
Greta
Site Admin
Posts: 8074
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by Greta » September 17th, 2019, 5:02 pm

gater, you ignore experimental findings and make unreasoned assertions.

If you are basing your notion on the idea that time did not start with the big bang, then you are mistaking popular science journalism with science.

Time per se seemingly did not start with the BB, that was when it started as a construct that is meaningful to us. In the pre-big bang universe, there were no atoms, stars or planets to mark time as we know it with decay rates, rotations or orbits. Time would have been completely relative to whatever virtual particle was popping in or out of existence. No doubt things still happened, but nothing measurable happened.

As for space, when scientists talk of space being created, they are talking about regions that lie between objects. If there are no objects, there are no regions, and therefore no measurable space. Also note that space-time is not empty space. In space-time, some regions being dense (objects) and some being very sparse (outer space) but none are truly empty, ie. not true space in the theoretical sense.

User avatar
gater
New Trial Member
Posts: 14
Joined: September 6th, 2019, 12:02 am

Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by gater » September 17th, 2019, 6:24 pm

No - the Big Bang was the start of our galaxy and surrounding galaxies. The Universe was already infinitely old when this happened, there was no beginning of time - and physically space can not end. Space does not expand - matter moves through space giving the illusion of expansion. The early Greek Philosophers had a much greater understanding of the Universe by using Logic than todays scientists that use telescopes.

BigBango
Posts: 258
Joined: March 15th, 2018, 6:15 pm

Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by BigBango » September 17th, 2019, 6:47 pm

Greta wrote:
September 17th, 2019, 5:02 pm
gater, you ignore experimental findings and make unreasoned assertions.

If you are basing your notion on the idea that time did not start with the big bang, then you are mistaking popular science journalism with science.

Time per se seemingly did not start with the BB, that was when it started as a construct that is meaningful to us. In the pre-big bang universe, there were no atoms, stars or planets to mark time as we know it with decay rates, rotations or orbits. Time would have been completely relative to whatever virtual particle was popping in or out of existence. No doubt things still happened, but nothing measurable happened.
Greta, you are seemingly consistent with most of the assumptions of contemporary science. For instance, the lack of our measurability of time before the BB seems to support your scientifically approved notion that time "as we could know it, with measurable confidence" begins with the BB.

The problem I see with your thesis is that there are many metaphysical constructs within science that we cannot directly measure but do accept as real because the "theory", say The Standard Model for one, predicts the effect those theoretical particles would have on other particles we can measure after colliding particles in accelerators. Quarks or gluons have never been directly measured. They just must exist for the effect they have on bigger particles is predicted by the theory and so we can keep our belief in our theories. Therefore I suggest it is improper for you to dismiss theories do to a lack of measurability if you do not also apply that criticism to contemporary science.

The problem here is not to reject all unmeasurable notions but to formalize the kind of theoretical support that must surround the unmeasurable objects in order for us to take them seriously. While Kant moved to reject all theories that had no empirical basis, and I suppose that to mean measurable knowledge, we seem to have accepted within science the notion of "Empirically Lite", sort of like Bud Lite.

The Formalization of the Theoretical Support Needed to Accept the Existence of an Unmeasurable Object

(1.) The object needs to be a necessary part of a Consistent and Complete Theory.
(2.) The Theory needs to predict the effects on objects that we can measure.

User avatar
gater
New Trial Member
Posts: 14
Joined: September 6th, 2019, 12:02 am

Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by gater » September 17th, 2019, 9:38 pm

Greta wrote:
September 17th, 2019, 5:02 pm
gater, you ignore experimental findings and make unreasoned assertions.

If you are basing your notion on the idea that time did not start with the big bang, then you are mistaking popular science journalism with science.

Time per se seemingly did not start with the BB, that was when it started as a construct that is meaningful to us. In the pre-big bang universe, there were no atoms, stars or planets to mark time as we know it with decay rates, rotations or orbits. Time would have been completely relative to whatever virtual particle was popping in or out of existence. No doubt things still happened, but nothing measurable happened.

As for space, when scientists talk of space being created, they are talking about regions that lie between objects. If there are no objects, there are no regions, and therefore no measurable space. Also note that space-time is not empty space. In space-time, some regions being dense (objects) and some being very sparse (outer space) but none are truly empty, ie. not true space in the theoretical sense.
Greta, its not that I ignore experimental findings, I fully understand the Universe and all of the laws that apply.
I assure you the Universe has always been here. The BB was just the start of this portion of the observable Universe.

User avatar
Greta
Site Admin
Posts: 8074
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by Greta » September 18th, 2019, 12:56 am

BigBango wrote:
September 17th, 2019, 6:47 pm
The problem here is not to reject all unmeasurable notions ...
If we rejected unmeasurable notions we could not live.

However, in matters of science, I am more inclined to believe scientists who deal with the issues and observe what we speak about every day than lay philosophers who imagine how reality might be with far less relevant information at their disposal.

The latter might sometimes be right but, on the whole, scientists are very much more reliable.

User avatar
Greta
Site Admin
Posts: 8074
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by Greta » September 18th, 2019, 12:58 am

gater wrote:
September 17th, 2019, 6:24 pm
No - the Big Bang was the start of our galaxy and surrounding galaxies.
Maybe.
gater wrote:
September 17th, 2019, 6:24 pm
The Universe was already infinitely old when this happened, there was no beginning of time - and physically space can not end.
Maybe.
gater wrote:
September 17th, 2019, 6:24 pm
Space does not expand - matter moves through space giving the illusion of expansion.
Experimental evidence apparently says otherwise.
gater wrote:
September 17th, 2019, 6:24 pm
The early Greek Philosophers had a much greater understanding of the Universe by using Logic than todays scientists that use telescopes.
Hardly.

BigBango
Posts: 258
Joined: March 15th, 2018, 6:15 pm

Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by BigBango » September 18th, 2019, 2:36 am

Greta wrote:
September 18th, 2019, 12:56 am
BigBango wrote:
September 17th, 2019, 6:47 pm
The problem here is not to reject all unmeasurable notions ...
If we rejected unmeasurable notions we could not live.

However, in matters of science, I am more inclined to believe scientists who deal with the issues and observe what we speak about every day than lay philosophers who imagine how reality might be with far less relevant information at their disposal.

The latter might sometimes be right but, on the whole, scientists are very much more reliable.
Greta, I am really disappointed in your response to my post. I raised some valid issues about what kind of unmeasurable objects could be accepted if there were supportive theories to attest to their reality. Instead of arguing my points with counter claims you argue by diminishing the person who argues. You diminish gater by saying he is just spouting "popular science" and you have diminished my arguments by saying "I have a blockbuster science fiction story" and also comparing me to a "lay philosopher" who does not deal with the issues and observe what we speak about every day like scientists do.

I guess your measure of truth is not in arguing the issues but in rating the merits of the arguers.

User avatar
gater
New Trial Member
Posts: 14
Joined: September 6th, 2019, 12:02 am

Re: Is Time Just an Idea?

Post by gater » September 18th, 2019, 10:51 am

Honestly I don't care if anyone believes me - but I speak the truth about infinite time and space - if the day comes that you can comprehend what that really means you will know that im right.

Post Reply