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Gravity: Einstein vs Newton

Use this forum to discuss the philosophy of science. Philosophy of science deals with the assumptions, foundations, and implications of science.
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Jonathan A Bain
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Gravity: Einstein vs Newton

Post by Jonathan A Bain » September 29th, 2019, 3:24 pm

Briefly Einstein claimed that gravity moves no faster than light
as is evidenced on pg 94 of Hawking' 'Brief History of Time',
as well as pg 74-75.

"General Relativity predicts that heavy objects that are moving
will cause the emission of gravitational waves, ripples in the
curvature of space that travel at the speed of light". (pg 94)

"Real gravitons make up what classical physicists would call
gravitational waves..." (pg 74)

Newtonian calculations take it that gravity traverses across
space instantly. So as an example, we use the Alpha Centauri
binary pair which has a roughly 5 hour delay between them
for anything moving at the speed of light.

My calculations show that this pair would spiral outwards
at more than 1.4 million km per orbit if gravity moved
at the speed of light, giving all such binaries
less than a million year life span.

Thus either gravity is instant, or it traverses space
millions of times faster than the speed of light.

I will provide links to algorithms later that demonstrate this.

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h_k_s
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Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: Gravity: Einstein vs Newton

Post by h_k_s » September 30th, 2019, 2:27 pm

Jonathan A Bain wrote:
September 29th, 2019, 3:24 pm
Briefly Einstein claimed that gravity moves no faster than light
as is evidenced on pg 94 of Hawking' 'Brief History of Time',
as well as pg 74-75.

"General Relativity predicts that heavy objects that are moving
will cause the emission of gravitational waves, ripples in the
curvature of space that travel at the speed of light". (pg 94)

"Real gravitons make up what classical physicists would call
gravitational waves..." (pg 74)

Newtonian calculations take it that gravity traverses across
space instantly. So as an example, we use the Alpha Centauri
binary pair which has a roughly 5 hour delay between them
for anything moving at the speed of light.

My calculations show that this pair would spiral outwards
at more than 1.4 million km per orbit if gravity moved
at the speed of light, giving all such binaries
less than a million year life span.

Thus either gravity is instant, or it traverses space
millions of times faster than the speed of light.

I will provide links to algorithms later that demonstrate this.
We/Scientists/Science do/does not know exactly what Gravity really is.

You must always bear in mind your limitations.

Per Clint Eastwood, in Magnum Force (the movie).

What a great philosopher he is.

This notion of knowing ones own limitations is akin to "moderation in all things" by Hesiod (even though Aristotle took credit), and "Cogito Ergo Sum" by Descartes.

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Halc
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Joined: March 17th, 2018, 9:47 pm

Re: Gravity: Einstein vs Newton

Post by Halc » September 30th, 2019, 10:58 pm

Jonathan A Bain wrote:
September 29th, 2019, 3:24 pm
Briefly Einstein claimed that gravity moves no faster than light
Einstein claimed no such thing. Quote Einstein if you assert otherwise.
as is evidenced on pg 94 of Hawking' 'Brief History of Time',
as well as pg 74-75.

"General Relativity predicts that heavy objects that are moving will cause the emission of gravitational waves, ripples in the curvature of space that travel at the speed of light". (pg 94)
This is true. But gravity waves (gravitons) are not gravity. Gravity waves convey information, and information is confined to light speed.

[/quote]"Real gravitons make up what classical physicists would call gravitational waves..." (pg 74)[/quote]
Again accurate.
My calculations show that this pair would spiral outwards at more than 1.4 million km per orbit if gravity moved at the speed of light, giving all such binaries less than a million year life span.
Again true, as Einstein and everybody knew. This is not news. Gravity is a field and doesn't travel at all.
Thus either gravity is instant, or it traverses space millions of times faster than the speed of light.
It has never been proven to be instant, but measured (by methods similar to yours) to be within I think at least 20 digits of it.

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Halc
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Joined: March 17th, 2018, 9:47 pm

Re: Gravity: Einstein vs Newton

Post by Halc » September 30th, 2019, 11:03 pm

Actually, any deviation from 'instant' would be a violation of conservation of energy, angular momentum, and probably other things. Demonstrating a finite speed to it would collapse any physics built on the laws of thermodynamics. So that does constitute a proof of it given a postulate of the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

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detail
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Joined: June 1st, 2019, 1:39 pm

Re: Gravity: Einstein vs Newton

Post by detail » October 1st, 2019, 11:47 am

Gravitational waves could already exist in 3 dimensional newtons theory , due to the fact that the gravitational force is dependent on the laplacian of the gravitational potential and a body moves inside this setting in a prescribed way according to propelling drive. If excited via a driving force this can then result in a timely periodic behaviour of the gravitational potential. You would laugh the ecliptic path of our planets is periodic, so the solution
of the gravitational potential then results in the gravitational force which is then periodic. A heavy rocket passing their orbits , could then emit even in a classical form a weak wavelike effect in the gravitational potential. But the efffect is with heavy black holes by far stronger after the einstein equations.

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